Jump to content


Photo

TWO Philosophy


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 martin

martin

    Grand PoohBah

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5616 posts
  • Martin Hash
  • Vancouver, Washington
  • Windows
  • Programmer:Yes

Posted 04 October 2006 - 11:23 AM

I've had a couple people contact me privately, so I know there must be more wondering: "How can TWO possibly have a consistent 'look' with so many disparate artists working on it without an Art Director?" Well, the answer is simple - it can't... Thus far, making TWO has been an adventure... We are dozens (hundreds?) of different people all working separately towards a common goal. If there's anything I've learned on the project so far, it's that I don't know what to expect. (Actually, that's part of what makes it so fun!) I've been successful in my career(s) because I don't let preconceptions cloud my judgment; I set appropriate expectations; I work with what fate gives me; and criticism has no place in my life. I know that working on TWO is a great opportunity to whoever gets involved. There won't be too many more like this. It is something bigger than any one person. Anyway, I'll let this thread run unless it gets negative.
Let's make movies!

#2 KenH

KenH

    Blind Lord of all he sees.

  • Film
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13769 posts
  • Ken Heslip
  • Dublin,Ireland
  • Windows
  • Contests Won:***(mascot)

Posted 04 October 2006 - 12:19 PM

I think that's the beauty about it being set in the land of Oz. There, any style is possible and they can co-exist together. As long as all of each individual set looks similar, I don't think it should be much of a problem. But even if it doesn't all gel together, why does it have to? As long as it looks good and it's an entertaining story the viewer will get lost in the world and accept it.
Vista Home Premium 64 bit/AM v15/ATI Radeon HD3870/8Gb 800mhz DDR2 RAM/e8400 Processor
My AM Goodies Store
My T.W.O models
Get your AM problems fixed at AM:Reports

#3 itsjustme

itsjustme

    David Simmons......me.

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5481 posts
  • David Simmons
  • current
  • Windows

Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:43 PM

I don't think there's a problem with being consistent in style...I agree with both Ken and Martin. Anything is possible in Oz and it's part of the fun of the project. The place for the most concern about being consistent (to me) is in how each character is animated throughout the film. That is also going to be the hardest part in my mind.

#4 Rodney

Rodney

    A:M Bot 14309

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6979 posts
  • Rodney Baker
  • *Admin*
  • Illinois (not Japan)
  • subscriber
  • Windows

Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:57 PM

A couple beauty passes by a few lighting/texturing gurus will help to keep a general style. Its where there is really stark changes in style *without* a change in story element that we'll have to watch. In particular the characters... someone will probably have to be selected eventually to be Character leads just to keep them consistent. Change in scenery background... that's a good thing. Part of the charm to Oz will be the layers of styling that will be on display in TWO. :)
"Animation is 90 percent hard work.  The other half is entirely mental!"
See my effort to think about the art of animation at: My Blog
Want to learn A:M? Start TaoA:M

#5 martin

martin

    Grand PoohBah

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5616 posts
  • Martin Hash
  • Vancouver, Washington
  • Windows
  • Programmer:Yes

Posted 04 October 2006 - 06:06 PM

The place for the most concern about being consistent (to me) is in how each character is animated throughout the film. That is also going to be the hardest part in my mind.

Indeed, that's going to be monsterously difficult, seeing as how there will hopefully be 50-100 different animators by the time this thing is "done." And way more than half of the scenes will be by "beginners." I know we'll all get better, but still...

Hopefully, somebody will be good enough near the end that they can go through the whole movie and "clean things up," (whatever that means?)

I'm lovin' it.
Let's make movies!

#6 zandoriastudios

zandoriastudios

    AM:Expert

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3942 posts
  • William Sutton
  • Ooltewah, TN
  • Windows
  • Contests Won:****

Posted 04 October 2006 - 06:28 PM

I think that if you can get the texturing and lighting consistent, then it won't matter about the different art styles of the contributors, because the renders will unify the look.

Will Sutton

Zandoria Studios


#7 martin

martin

    Grand PoohBah

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5616 posts
  • Martin Hash
  • Vancouver, Washington
  • Windows
  • Programmer:Yes

Posted 04 October 2006 - 06:33 PM

I think that if you can get the texturing and lighting consistent, then it won't matter about the different art styles of the contributors, because the renders will unify the look.

I wish you were doing that, Will.
Let's make movies!

#8 PF_Mark

PF_Mark

    TWO Animator

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1820 posts
  • Mark Allan
  • Ontario, Canada
  • Windows

Posted 04 October 2006 - 08:01 PM

One first has to ask this question and I know it's probably already been said but what is your audeiance going to be? Is this just for us? Independant film festival contest entries? a mega demo/plug for AM? Either or none is fine with me I am here for the experiance/learning/fun/freindship. So I think having alot of differances in the movies look is a good thing and different people might say other wise but that's ok too. If this is a demo reel for AM films showing what AM is capable of to the world maybe we should show just how differnt the look can be. I am going way out here but what if we did a small part as toon render maybe a dream scene or memoir of something as anime style. Maybe bringing some anime animators into the project? I am just thinking out load so don't jump on me too hard :blink: I say lets see were this project goes then we can take a look at it and with an open mind and just render it out. It's ok if some are less experinced Animators we are all helping each other learn. I for one am not ashamed of my inexperience I would rather see my own work as good as I can get it with the help of this group then have someone fix/redo my work to make it look what someone else thinks it should look like. IF Rhett says what I have done is ok then that's the end of that. I want to show off my hard work not someone elses. Just my thoughts on a late late night ;)
Mark Allan

#9 robcat2075

robcat2075

    persistent smarty-pants

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24056 posts
  • Robert Holmén
  • *Moderator*
  • Dallas, Texas
  • current
  • Windows
  • Programmer:NO

Posted 04 October 2006 - 11:46 PM

I agree the animation will be all over the map. The models are all pretty commercial looking and I expect the lighting will be too (meaning nothing really wild or experimental attempted here). That will do a lot to unify the look.

Robert Holmén
------

Got an A:M question? Come to Live Answer Time.   Saturdays, Noon CDT (1700 GMT)

Watch the 2017 "Summer Memories" Image Contest Awards

 

My tutorials All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about.
 
this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests

87,848 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube

Big thanks to... Roger (again!), Shelton (it's huge!), NancyGormezano, Roger, cribbidaj, thefreshestever, Tom, Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar!


#10 Russel_Nash

Russel_Nash

    Apprentice

  • A:M User
  • PipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Torsten Thuenen
  • Wendeburg, Germany
  • Windows
  • Contests Won:*

Posted 05 October 2006 - 05:56 AM

Hi, first of all I would like to say that I am really glad to be part of this amazing project. I will definitely go on contributing stuff no matter how this discussion ends. It’s a great opportunity to improve my skills and to meet a lot of nice people. However I have to say I would prefer to have an Art director who guides people a bit so that the over all look is quite consistent. We have the great opportunity to have a director who has made a wonderful animatic and we have really great concept sketches, why not stick to this vision? The story and the design works and to my mind this project has the potential to been shown on TV or even hit the DVD shelf. To my mind fixing something at a later stage isn’t the right choice. This way it would lose the personal touch of the artist. It would be better if an Art director guides the artist though his creative process and gives some suggestion so that the final “product” matches the desired look as closely as possible. The over all look of the movie should be consistent. If we use the provided sketches as guidance I think we could achieve this. But if we use things like modern machines in an old looking environment or other technical stuff which dose not fit in the overall time period the audience is getting distract from the story and will lose interest very fast. I think we have achieved a consistent look for the characters already, so why not try this for the sets and props? Even if one follows the guidance of an Art director she or he has still a lot of artistic freedom. It may be sometimes difficult to satisfy the Art directors visions but there are so many talented people around who are willing to help someone who is in trouble that this should be possible in the end. And the learning experience as well as the fun would be even bigger as if everyone is working for her/his own. Again, I am really glad to have the opportunity to contribute to this project. Thanks a lot for making it possible. Russel

#11 KenH

KenH

    Blind Lord of all he sees.

  • Film
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13769 posts
  • Ken Heslip
  • Dublin,Ireland
  • Windows
  • Contests Won:***(mascot)

Posted 05 October 2006 - 06:15 AM

Those things would be nice, but we can only work with what we have. To date, few people have volunteered to do texture work. Which is understandable as this is a "spare time" production. Also, it maybe difficult to judge such things during the process. They will become more obvious once we can see them all in the context of a viewable sequence.
Vista Home Premium 64 bit/AM v15/ATI Radeon HD3870/8Gb 800mhz DDR2 RAM/e8400 Processor
My AM Goodies Store
My T.W.O models
Get your AM problems fixed at AM:Reports

#12 martin

martin

    Grand PoohBah

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5616 posts
  • Martin Hash
  • Vancouver, Washington
  • Windows
  • Programmer:Yes

Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:39 AM

first of all I would like to say that I am really glad to be part of this amazing project. I will definitely go on contributing stuff no matter how this discussion ends. It’s a great opportunity to improve my skills and to meet a lot of nice people.

Thank you so much for the commitment, Torsten. I'll try to be as honest with my reply as I can even though it may be a little too honest.

However I have to say I would prefer to have an Art director who guides people a bit

Me too. That was the intent but after 18 months and numerous "Art Directors," I have some new insight into human nature.

1) We are volunteers.
What this means is that most people will not take orders. Everyone has a natural resentment at being subservient to anyone which is usually overcome by being paid, or being coerced in some way. Hash does neither so our volunteers will simply walk away unless their participation is more of a partnership.

2) People who use A:M are mavericks.
Meaning A:Mer's are wildly independent; not typically ones that follow the leader.

3) People who use A:M want to make their own movies not someone else’s.
Uh... We get who we sell to.

4) The "Art Director" needs to be a Superstar Artist.
Someone of impeccable reputation as an artist, otherwise they cannot command the respect they need for someone to take their orders voluntarily. We went through all those guys like water: the job is too big; the commitment too vast; the management too demanding; the leadership too sensitive. I am all those other things but I'm not the "Superstar Artist," so I can't give orders.

5) The world is filled full of bipolar people.
At varying degrees: happy/sad, good/bad, manic/depressive. Personally, I have no problem working in an environment where I can't predict how someone will react from one day to the next - that's life, but everyone else needs to be understanding too, especially the Art Director. And what happens when the Art Director is in their own "down" cycle? This is an aspect of life working in groups that no one talks about, I guess because bipolarism is stigmatized as a mental illness. From my experience, everyone exhibits it at one degree or another: it's natural chemistry after all. Anyway, maybe I shouldn't be mentioning it but it is a huge part of managing this project.

Again, I am really glad to have the opportunity to contribute to this project. Thanks a lot for making it possible.

And again, thank you for your loyalty to Animation:Master, and contributing your fabulous artistic ability to "Tin Woodman of Oz."
Let's make movies!

#13 NancyGormezano

NancyGormezano

    Runs With Scissors

  • Film
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7686 posts
  • Nancy Gormezano
  • Cupertino, CA
  • Windows
  • Contests Won:**

Posted 05 October 2006 - 08:18 AM

I have some new insight into human nature.


Those were the best, most excellent observations - and definitely describe the dynamics of this project/situation to a tee.

Bravo, Martin.

#14 PF_Mark

PF_Mark

    TWO Animator

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1820 posts
  • Mark Allan
  • Ontario, Canada
  • Windows

Posted 12 October 2006 - 01:42 PM

About the Animation being all over the place as Quality is concerned I can't say that I would disagree but one thing I can add is this. When I first talked to Robert Taylor for my interview over skype to be allowed into this project I asked him how can he control how a charatcter walks/talk/act around if so many Animators are going to be working on this project? His answear was that he took very carefull planning into the Antmatics that he avoids the characters doing the same motions or action more than once When the characters does repeat something or shows something requiring consistance he has that noted in his Anmatics so that he knows which scenes need to be animated by the same person. That and I knowledge of what each Animator is capable of he then gave out the scenes accordingly. This is why I get worried when we start changing the Antmatics which bye them self is only half of the plan. Bob notes and Knowledge/experence was the other. So maybe if we keep these things in mind when we asign scenes and work together as a team we can make a really good movie we can ALL be proud of ;) Which is what Robert said to me basically. So am am looking forward to trying my personal best to contribute to something that is "bigger than any one of us" (Martin) and "Create a Movie that we can all be proud of " (Robert Taylor)
Mark Allan

#15 PF_Mark

PF_Mark

    TWO Animator

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1820 posts
  • Mark Allan
  • Ontario, Canada
  • Windows

Posted 12 October 2006 - 01:57 PM

Now my thoughts on bipolar / up and downs of working on such a project. Frist I agree with Martin this is something we all suffer from and is a part of life. But this is how I plan to minimis this Productivity killer part of myself.

1) I have multi scenes I am working on when one gets to frustrating I move on to another.

2) there are differnet ways of helping for example after getting frustrated with my animating abilities I helped Rhett setup up some scenes. This took my frustation away I learned somthings I did not know how to do and in doing this (which made me feel good about myself agian) I helped others and restored some energy! Then I went and solved my animation problem with the energy I got!

3) I plan/hope to work closely with other people on my scenes which brings the FUN and Freindship into the equation. Working and interacting and learning with others is in itself energizing. I plan to avoid shutting myself off in a room and becoming a hermit I don't believe I would last the disatnce is I went that route.

Looking forward to working with everyone lets have some FUN
Mark Allan

#16 Jeetman

Jeetman

    Prolific

  • Film
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 903 posts
  • George Dugas
  • Rhode Island
  • Windows

Posted 13 October 2006 - 05:11 AM

About the Animation being all over the place as Quality is concerned I can't say that I would disagree but one thing I can add is this. When I first talked to Robert Taylor for my interview over skype to be allowed into this project I asked him how can he control how a charatcter walks/talk/act around if so many Animators are going to be working on this project? His answear was that he took very carefull planning into the Antmatics that he avoids the characters doing the same motions or action more than once When the characters does repeat something or shows something requiring consistance he has that noted in his Anmatics so that he knows which scenes need to be animated by the same person. That and I knowledge of what each Animator is capable of he then gave out the scenes accordingly. This is why I get worried when we start changing the Antmatics which bye them self is only half of the plan. Bob notes and Knowledge/experence was the other. So maybe if we keep these things in mind when we asign scenes and work together as a team we can make a really good movie we can ALL be proud of ;) Which is what Robert said to me basically. So am am looking forward to trying my personal best to contribute to something that is "bigger than any one of us" (Martin) and "Create a Movie that we can all be proud of " (Robert Taylor)


What Mark says here embodies your biggest challenge. Because there are so many artists involved and I believe are being given artistic license to create and interpret a shot based on the animatics and the sound recording, you are going to have many different interpretations of the characters.

Texturing and lighting is not going to blend say Tin man gesturing with his hands profusely in one cut and very little in another. In animating, each artist has his own way of expressing themselves. It's up to the artist to study the character profile and look at others shots (I think) and for the community to point out any inconsistencies with the designed theme during review.

Like on Jeff Lew's DVD (as many of you probably know), you need to really define the character's (Are they happy, sad, brave or cowardly, confident, shy, etc) and relay this information to the animators so they can stay in line with the character profiles.

This needs to be done on all levels (lighting, sets, textures, etc). Russel made a good point about sets. You don't want a modern looking prop or set if all others are primative looking. It won't match the motif.

If this attention to detail is done, then clean up should be minimal IMHO.



Incidentally Martin, I checked my email for the information you sent me about how to start on TWO but I didn't get it.

Is there a thread in the TWO forum that has this information about how to get started and use the svn?

George
Boards don't hit back!
Bruce Lee (Enter the Dragon)

#17 jpappas

jpappas

    Craftsman

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 470 posts
  • Jim Pappas
  • New Hampshire
  • Windows

Posted 13 October 2006 - 05:38 AM

http://wiki.hash.com.../GettingStarted

-Jim

#18 martin

martin

    Grand PoohBah

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5616 posts
  • Martin Hash
  • Vancouver, Washington
  • Windows
  • Programmer:Yes

Posted 13 October 2006 - 08:49 AM

I'm posting a private email exchange between Jost (jakerupert) Keller and myself because it is germane to this discussion.

First off, TWO's 10 goals are clearly listed:

1) Involve the A:M community.
2) Use Animation:Master on a large production.
3) Increase the skills of those working on the project.
4) Improve Animation:Master.
5) Have fun.
6) Promote Animation:Master.
7) Educate new customers.
8) Learn how to do it.
9) Be able to do it again.
10) Make a good movie.

A good movie needs a director.

No director will work on this movie, and even if we had one, most of the volunteers will not take orders.

As you know, I think a director is necessary to make a really good movie, but if no director is possible,as you convincingly pointed out, let's get the best out of it without one.

I suggest concentrating doing a 3 to 5 minute trailer now. That would be achievable in a predictable amount of time and effort.

Why? A:M has plenty of great trailers. One more isn't going to add anything.

I thought the trailer would be a good idea, because I think it would be more encouraging to have some smaller piece of the whole movie as some kind of "inbeetween-goal" for everybody to be reachable in a more predictable amount of time.

A potential "funder" needs to see that Hash can pull off a BIG project. A few guys in a room (or one guy) can pull off a trailer. It's movies and series that are hard.

Then try to raise some funding, wheras in the meantime TWO could continue as a playground.

Unlikely. "Briar Rose" got no funding. "Bubblegum Crisis" got no funding. The only funding for TWO will be coming from my retirement account.

Its really unbelievable for me , that such great stuff like Briar Rose and Bubblegumcrisis cant get funding. A bit disencouranging.....

It is discouraging if viewed without correct sophistication... Those are great trailers that could get funding if we could get in position to make a deal. I'm trying to get Hash into that position. I know what the ingredients are, it's just a matter of getting them together.

Why not try to get proffessional on every aspect of movie-making?

How can we do that with 90% amateurs? This is a very unrealistic expectation.

Good point to be more realistic. I will try that!


Let's make movies!

#19 Russel_Nash

Russel_Nash

    Apprentice

  • A:M User
  • PipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Torsten Thuenen
  • Wendeburg, Germany
  • Windows
  • Contests Won:*

Posted 13 October 2006 - 09:48 AM

...and even if we had one, most of the volunteers will not take orders.


Hm, I am quite new to TWO but I would be grateful to have an director pointing me in the right direction.
Just a suggestion:
How about making a poll and ask every one who is participating the TWO project (maybe by sending a short email) to place her/his vote in the poll.

On more thing:
Is it necessary the an art director is a single person? How about a “meeting minute” where a few people meet and discuss for example the overall layout for a set? It could run like this: in the first meeting a set is chosen. Than every participant has a week time to collect some examples of how he thinks the set or props should look like. (maybe google for some reference pics or make a very rough model to show her/his ideas.) All this examples are than placed to one website and in the next “meeting minute” it will be discussed which direction should be taken.
This of course is only possible if the poll would show that most participants are willing to accept an art director.

Torsten (aka Russel)

#20 martin

martin

    Grand PoohBah

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5616 posts
  • Martin Hash
  • Vancouver, Washington
  • Windows
  • Programmer:Yes

Posted 13 October 2006 - 10:23 AM


...and even if we had one, most of the volunteers will not take orders.

Hm, I am quite new to TWO but I would be grateful to have an director pointing me in the right direction.

Me too...


Just a suggestion:
How about making a poll and ask every one who is participating the TWO project (maybe by sending a short email) to place her/his vote in the poll.

What people say in a poll and what they really do doesn't correspond very well. After 18 months, I think I'm qualified to make predictions about how people will react to "orders" or "criticism." Some of our best and most productive artists will take neither, and I understand why that is. About half of our people are solitary workers so we all need to determine our own artistic partners.


Is it necessary the an art director is a single person? How about a “meeting minute” where a few people meet and discuss for example the overall layout for a set? It could run like this: in the first meeting a set is chosen. Than every participant has a week time to collect some examples of how he thinks the set or props should look like. (maybe google for some reference pics or make a very rough model to show her/his ideas.) All this examples are than placed to one website and in the next “meeting minute” it will be discussed which direction should be taken.

This is a good idea. I think you're doing that now, Torsten, when I read your comments to Alain in the "Yoop Castle" thread, and Stian in the "Ku-Klip's Workshop" thread. Keep doing that and let's see how it goes.

I think leaders for TWO will emerge naturally (maybe you?) Hash will keep ahead on the management, recruitment, and planning end of things if you guys could keep the fires burning. I'm not expecting fulltime commitment, but fulltime "hobby" commitment would be good.
Let's make movies!

#21 PF_Mark

PF_Mark

    TWO Animator

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1820 posts
  • Mark Allan
  • Ontario, Canada
  • Windows

Posted 16 October 2006 - 01:15 PM

Basically lets make a movie and not get to worried about what if's. Lets work with what he have, build form that and see what happens. No one has all the answears to everything If Martin let stuff like that stop him we would not have AM to work with today IMHO. We have people working very hard on these issues Rhett is your Production Manager and he is doing a great job. Robert Holmen is a great Animator and teacher and he as well as others is trying to help us improve your animations. We have set Creators working on sets (Lloyd were are you?) by best advise is look at the previous work before and after your scene or sets and build from that. Do A rough take1 post it log dot project and when you want to go back and improve on it ask Rhett if the rough take is what he wants before putting any more time into it. That is what I am doing anyways and It is working fine IMHO.
Mark Allan




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users