190 replies to this topic

[robcat2075]

This is where I will post material for animators working on the "We're Off, We're Gone" song sequence.

You can download the story board set to the music in this post Edit: I've noticed the link doesn't takeyou to quite the right post. Scroll to post #18

For the animators who are new to working with me here is a brief intro to the pose-to-pose workflow:

PoseToPoseH.mov

Here are detailed comments explaining the first six shots, which take us through the first verse and chorus.

2_01_52_MakeMy_Pitch.mov
2_01_53_FloorRealClean_Pitch.mov
2_01_54_NimmeeAimee_Pitch.mov
2_01_55_WootsDoor_PitchMP4.mov
2_01_56_mowtheLawn_Pitch.mov
- - - -DogCollarConstraintsMP4.mov
2_01_57_ScarecrowDoor_Pitch.mov

There are still a few props and sets we need to scour up.

[HomeSlice]

Rob, I have downloaded most of the movies you linked to, but since my animation computer still has Quicktime 6 Pro, I cannot view them on this computer. I would rather not have to upgrade to QT 7 Pro just for a couple of codecs that, honestly, don't appear much better than what I've been using, so I have to copy them over to my other computer, which has the software that *can* play your movies. This isn't too much of a problem, but it just means I cannot easily refer to them while animating if I have to. But I'm wondering if it would be too much trouble for you to compress future movies in MPEG 4 or Sorenson 3 or some other codec QT 6 can play. If not, it's no big deal. I just thought I would ask.

[robcat2075]

This isn't too much of a problem, but it just means I cannot easily refer to them while animating if I have to. But I'm wondering if it would be too much trouble for you to compress future movies in MPEG 4 or Sorenson 3 or some other codec QT 6 can play.

I'll see what I can about recompressing one for you when you get a specific shot. It won't be tiny though.

[HomeSlice]

Ya know, I'll just upgrade to QT 7. I'm starting to feel silly by refusing to upgrade my QT. Heck, the Pro version is only $30 more or less....

[robcat2075]

Ya know, I'll just upgrade to QT 7. I'm starting to feel silly by refusing to upgrade my QT. Heck, the Pro version is only $30 more or less....

Beware, if you use After Effects. My V5 doesn't work render sound with QT7

[HomeSlice]

I think my After Effects is version 4. So you are saying that I will not be able to render *any* Quicktime movies with sound out of After Effects if I install QT7? ... even with the old codecs like Sorenson 3 or MPEG4 ?

[Paul Forwood]

That is correct, Holmes. QT 7.1 doesn't play nice with AE5, causing sound errors, and I would imagine the same applies to earlier versions of AE aswell.

[HomeSlice]

Thanks Paul. Alrighty then, I guess I will not be upgrading to QT 7 then. Robcat, I've noticed that Sor 3, medium quality, keyframe every 100 frames, 256 Kb/sec gives decent results (better quality than 128kb/sec) .

[PF_Mark]

This is where I will post material for animators working on the "We're Off, We're Gone" song sequence.

You can download the story board set to the music in this post

For the animators who are new to working with me here is a brief intro to the pose-to-pose workflow:

PoseToPoseH.mov

Here are detailed comments explaining the first six shots, which take us through the first verse and chorus.

2_01_52_MakeMy_Pitch.mov
2_01_53_FloorRealClean_Pitch.mov
2_01_54_NimmeeAimee_Pitch.mov
2_01_55_WootsDoor_Pitch.mov
2_01_56_mowtheLawn_Pitch.mov
2_01_57_ScarecrowDoor_Pitch.mov

There are still a few props and sets we need to scour up.

Robert so I should us these takes scenes laid out ASAP right?

[robcat2075]

Robert so I should us these takes scenes laid out ASAP right?

I was sitting down to start it right now, but now my __________ SVN won't update again.

edit: well, deleteing and re checking out again.

[HomeSlice]

Any idea when we will be able to download project files and get started?

[robcat2075]

Any idea when we will be able to download project files and get started?

Hopefully tonight.
I'm trying to thin out some of these sets right now down to what is actually needed to animate with. They're beautiful sets but very slow to manipulate.

[HomeSlice]

I'm trying to thin out some of these sets right now down to what is actually needed to animate with. They're beautiful sets but very slow to manipulate.

If the sets were constructed with a base model and a bunch of action objects in an action window, like Ku Klip's workshop, you could just delete the action file from the base model in the chor. That would thin it out.

[robcat2075]

2_01_56 is lay-outted

I think this one would be a good one for Dhar.

notes:
-Don't move a character's model bone, Don't move anything called "placement". This helps in case we need to relocate the animation to a different part of the set.
-I included the modeled ground in the TinGarden proxy because it is not a flat plane and you will need it to judge if feet are touching the ground or not.
-It is a moving camera shot.
-I arranged it so Tinman is initially framed by the door in the background. Good idea/bad idea... we'll find out.
-I placed the Tinservant a bit farther in the background. That is different from the storyboard drawing.
-I added a short vid explaining the dog collar up at the top.

-pose everything in your blocking poses, even fingers and face controls.

- When you post your WIPs start a separate thread rather than posting them here so Martin can more easily track them.

[robcat2075]

This one is for Holmes Bryant

2_01_55

-there's a pitch video at the top
-and watch the storyboard vid if you haven't already
-pose everything in your blocking poses, even fingers and face controls.
-ask Martin to formally assign you this shot in dotproject
-I've placed the TinServant a bit farther in the back than shown in the storyboard.
- the soundtrack has Tinman knocking three times. The last one will be taken out, don't pose him knocking there

- When you post your WIPs start a separate thread rather than posting them here so Martin can more easily track them.

Thanks!

[robcat2075]

Important note about shoulders...

When you're setting up to start any animation I'd really recommend setting your characters' right/left_arm_maintain_orientation_shoulder to ON.



This has no effect on IK arms, but when you are doing FK arms (best for most motions) it allows you to rotate the shoulder bones for shrugs and drops without it causing a wild change in the arm positions.

Think about it... when you shrug your shoulders do your arms fly out away from you? No. They stay by your side.

Setting this pose to ON makes for a more naturally behaving rig and easier posing. The alternative is to counter animate the arms everytime you adjust the shoulders. And faced with that, most people will just give up on shoulder animation entirely.

So set your right/left_arm_maintain_orientation_shoulder to ON. If you've already done some posing, it's not too late, we're still in blocking, go back and change them and save yourself time later on. You will be using those shoulder bones.

thanks!

[robcat2075]

2_01_57

This one is for George Dugas (aka Jeetman) when he becomes available. I had a good Skype call with George and we were discussing another shot of his where a character has to fall off balance, so that's why he draws this one.

It's a killer!



-watch the pitch video for this shot at the top of this thread.

-For the first pass, just the poses in paired keys synched to the sound track.
-see pose to pose video at top for info about the "paired keys" thing.

- I didn't do it in the pitch video but, yes, the Scarecrow does poke his head in at the end, as in the storyboard.

thanks, George!

[Jeetman]

Important note about shoulders...

When you're setting up to start any animation I'd really recommend setting your characters' right/left_arm_maintain_orientation_shoulder to ON.



This has no effect on IK arms, but when you are doing FK arms (best for most motions) it allows you to rotate the shoulder bones for shrugs and drops without it causing a wild change in the arm positions.

Think about it... when you shrug your shoulders do your arms fly out away from you? No. They stay by your side.

Setting this pose to ON makes for a more naturally behaving rig and easier posing. The alternative is to counter animate the arms every time you adjust the shoulders. And faced with that, most people will just give up on shoulder animation entirely.

So set your right/left_arm_maintain_orientation_shoulder to ON. If you've already done some posing, it's not too late, we're still in blocking, go back and change them and save yourself time later on. You will be using those shoulder bones.

thanks!

This is awesome!!!! It's the little things I learn that really help a lot. I've had this exact situation when trying to adjust shoulder bones (where the arms move with them). It's because of this that I've rarely used shoulder movements. I will ALWAYS have this on from now on.

Thank you Robert!!!

George

[Jeetman]

2_01_57

This one is for George Dugas (aka Jeetman) when he becomes available. I had a good Skype call with George and we were discussing another shot of his where a character has to fall off balance, so that's why he draws this one.

It's a killer!



-watch the pitch video for this shot at the top of this thread.

-For the first pass, just the poses in paired keys synched to the sound track.
-see pose to pose video at top for info about the "paired keys" thing.

- I didn't do it in the pitch video but, yes, the Scarecrow does poke his head in at the end, as in the storyboard.

thanks, George!

Robert!!!!

Man I love this sequence!!!!! This is going to be really fun to do! I love the pitch video. It completely explains what you're going for.

I will be on it ASAP which will be Wednesday at the latest. I'm shooting for Tuesday though.

George

[robcat2075]

It occurred to me that most of the shots in this first set are about shifting for one foot to another while changing poses. SO rather than do an inadequate treatment of that five times in five different crits I've tried to do an adequate job of it once and roll that into the more fundamental discussion of breakdown poses.

Pose to Pose Animation Part II: Breakdown poses

Dhar, Mark, Holmes... your crits are up next, but watch this tut first, I'll be alluding to it.

Thanks!

[PF_Mark]

I liked that Video Robert actaully I already have a good idea of things I know your going to point out in my 1st take hum when will I learn

[robcat2075]

Update: here's a PRJ with the animation from the video in it's various stages as I add the breakdown pose. Remember this isn't a "finished" animation, it's just added the breakdown. Much left to do.
 Breakdown04.zip   12.89KB   44 downloads

You'll notice things look much floatier when you see them play at 24fps than the 12 fps of the screen capture.

I liked that Video Robert actaully I already have a good idea of things I know your going to point out in my 1st take hum when will I learn

Not to worry. We don't expect the breakdown inthe first pass.

[robcat2075]

For everyone with a concertina shot, here's some talk about how to handle the concertina playing....


ConcertinaTalk1

ConcertinaTalk2 corrected links below

These are straight out of the camera, let me know if you can't play the ASF files.

[PF_Mark]

For everyone with a concertina shot, here's some talk about how to handle the concertina playing....


ConcertinaTalk1

ConcertinaTalk2

These are straight out of the camera, let me know if you can't play the ASF files.

404 error can not down load

[robcat2075]

404 error can not down load

Sorry, try again:

http://www.hash.com/...ertinaTalk1.ASF

http://www.hash.com/...ertinaTalk2.ASF

[Jeetman]

2_01_57

This one is for George Dugas (aka Jeetman) when he becomes available. I had a good Skype call with George and we were discussing another shot of his where a character has to fall off balance, so that's why he draws this one.

It's a killer!



-watch the pitch video for this shot at the top of this thread.

-For the first pass, just the poses in paired keys synched to the sound track.
-see pose to pose video at top for info about the "paired keys" thing.

- I didn't do it in the pitch video but, yes, the Scarecrow does poke his head in at the end, as in the storyboard.

thanks, George!

Robert,
I went to the SVN and I don't see a project for 2_01_57. Am I suppose to create the project?

George

[PF_Mark]

2_01_57

This one is for George Dugas (aka Jeetman) when he becomes available. I had a good Skype call with George and we were discussing another shot of his where a character has to fall off balance, so that's why he draws this one.

It's a killer!



-watch the pitch video for this shot at the top of this thread.

-For the first pass, just the poses in paired keys synched to the sound track.
-see pose to pose video at top for info about the "paired keys" thing.

- I didn't do it in the pitch video but, yes, the Scarecrow does poke his head in at the end, as in the storyboard.

thanks, George!

Robert,
I went to the SVN and I don't see a project for 2_01_57. Am I suppose to create the project?

George

There there George I just checked try updating the holder?

[robcat2075]

Here's a tip... When you're done with pass and think you're ready to post it... wait. Table it for a day. Write your memoirs, join the natives in their revels, whatever, then take another look at it with fresh eyes and ask yourself "have i really hit all the goals of this pass?", "What did I miss", "Any obvious problems that I could still fix?" For school i'd always think I was done when I turned my work in. But when I looked at it a day later I'd notice stuff I should have fixed. So my mentor was spending time on things I already knew needed correcting and maybe not getting around to address finer points that I wasn't aware of yet.

[Dhar]

Good point. Well taken.

[Jeetman]

Here's a tip...

When you're done with pass and think you're ready to post it... wait. Table it for a day. Write your memoirs, join the natives in their revels, whatever, then take another look at it with fresh eyes and ask yourself "have i really hit all the goals of this pass?", "What did I miss", "Any obvious problems that I could still fix?"

For school i'd always think I was done when I turned my work in. But when I looked at it a day later I'd notice stuff I should have fixed.

So my mentor was spending time on things I already knew needed correcting and maybe not getting around to address finer points that I wasn't aware of yet.

This is a great tip but what if you do as suggested (review the block poses) and noticed that your first pass isn't quite right but you can't put your finger on exactly what's wrong. This happened to me last night.

When I initially created the poses, I followed the instruction video and tried to match up your poses in the video as best I could. I posted when I thought I had it. I went back and looked at it again and all my seemingly matched poses (except the one where he's leaning against the door - I think I nailed that one) didn't look right.

One thing that I think made a big difference is that I didn't pay enough attention to the camera. When forming the poses, I kept zooming out to see Tin as a whole as shown in the video instruction. You or Mark created the camera position starting from a medium shot and dollying out to a long shot.

I looked at it again and saw I was missing a lot of the curves but when I went to adjust it as I said, I can't seem to strike the right poses. It was a bit frustrating. I'll try again tonight keeping in mind the camera.

George

[robcat2075]

This is a great tip but what if you do as suggested (review the block poses) and noticed that your first pass isn't quite right but you can't put your finger on exactly what's wrong. This happened to me last night.

If you've hit a wall, you've hit a wall and it's time to go for feedback. I'm just saying what looks like a wall at 3AM may not be a wall the next day.

That seems to be true in a lot of pursuits. I'm working on learning several piano pieces right now (when I'm not working on TWO, of course). I frequently find that something that I just could not get my fingers to do yesterday will be much better today. Why is it better today? I didn't practice anymore between then and now. I didn't even think about it. But somehow it got better. Then I go on to the next measure and beat that until i give up for the day.

This may or may not work for you.

When forming the poses, I kept zooming out to see Tin as a whole as shown in the video instruction. You or Mark created the camera position starting from a medium shot and dollying out to a long shot.

Considering the whole body is not a bad thing, especially when it will all be revealed by the end of the shot. The moving camera shot is an experiment, I could be wrong about if it's right for that shot. My other choice was to stay on the long shot.

[robcat2075]

Hi Guys, I'm behind on the crits because I've been render-wrangling a MiniMovie Contest entry for the last four days. (Hint: start looking for your red-blue glasses). Sorry about the delay, I'll get right back to it! thanks, Robert

[kuep]

Hey Robert, here is my first post for 2-01-53 i just whipped it up to see if this is what you are looking for. no offsets or cleanup yet. i didnt loop it so anyone who wants to check it out, just loop it yourself.

Attached Files

•  2_01_53__take_1.mov   341.55KB   68 downloads

[robcat2075]

Hey Robert, here is my first post for 2-01-53

i just whipped it up to see if this is what you are looking for.

no offsets or cleanup yet.

i didnt loop it so anyone who wants to check it out, just loop it yourself.

Hi John

Since we're going to speed it up, that might be done already, but I can think of a few things to make it clearer.

-the mop is always at the same angle to the floor, how about if it lowered a bit as he pushed it away and came back up as he is catching up to it/drawing it back.
-maybe push the mop farther out also/pull it back farther.

-I guess his stance would rise up a bit too as the mop is coming up and then crouch as he's pushing it out.

I think this extra variety in the motion will help when we speed it up.

Start a thread for this shot (so Martin can track these separately) and test it out on a path and lets see how it does!

[robcat2075]

Norman Rockwell was great at poses. He told a story in just one frame so he had to be. Look how he uses the angular, almost off-balance pose to show the awkwardness of the kid in the foreground. Meanwhile, the kid on the left who's relieved about the missed putt, is balanced. Notice how he's not just standing staight up but his posture has a slight C-curve to it to off set the weight of the golf-clubs hge's carrying. The other two boys inthe background are a minor misfire, I think. They're kind of muddying the silhouette of the front boy and the second boy from the right seems to be staring at the front boy's butt. Hmmm, maybe there's a story there too. Needing to fit the dimensions of a magazine cover might have had something to do with the layout of this.

[robcat2075]

Look at this cover pic that came in the mail today. This would have looked 100% more lifelike if they had pointed the eyes anywhere except straight ahead. If they had even looked at a real baseball player at bat (he's got the batting helmet on, after all) they would have seen him not pointing his eyes straight out of his head, but out of the corner at the pitcher. I didn't read to see what software they used, but it didn't stop them from making a zombie. Pointing the eyes straight out of the head is almost always weak. On the other hand maybe this is the ball player being interviewed by a TV reporter after the game, where they really do look like zombies and keep saying "I just take it one game at a time."

[PF_Mark]

Norman Rockwell was great at poses. He told a story in just one frame so he had to be. Look how he uses the angular, almost off-balance pose to show the awkwardness of the kid in the foreground. Meanwhile, the kid on the left who's relieved about the missed putt, is balanced. Notice how he's not just standing staight up but his posture has a slight C-curve to it to off set the weight of the golf-clubs hge's carrying. The other two boys inthe background are a minor misfire, I think. They're kind of muddying the silhouette of the front boy and the second boy from the right seems to be staring at the front boy's butt. Hmmm, maybe there's a story there too. Needing to fit the dimensions of a magazine cover might have had something to do with the layout of this.

Look at the stretch he has on the to left kids legs it's like men from toe to belt then kid from belt to head?

[robcat2075]

Look at the stretch he has on the to left kids legs it's like men from toe to belt then kid from belt to head?

yeah, that high waist seemed to be a style back then. I notice that on old Humphrey Bogart movies too. I'm sure they'd be horrified at the low waists on pants today.

[robcat2075]

Some comments about the behavior of CPs in motion channels.

biasmagnitudeMP4Low.mov


This isn't just about swinging motions, it applies to translation motions too, but everyone has some swinging motions in their shots right now.

[robcat2075]

Here's a sample of the motion we're looking for in the Tin Servant while he's playing the concertina. This can be done in almost any standing pose. It's like a bounce motion in the hips with overlaps in everything around it. I've added some spine quetch to augment the hip bouncing.  TSStandingMP4.mov   696.88KB   83 downloads

[HomeSlice]

Hey Rob, any chance of posting an action file of that?

[robcat2075]

Here's a PRJ with both the standing and sitting versions.  BouncingTinServant13.zip   533.77KB   53 downloads

[robcat2075]

Here's a new shot for Dhar!

2_01_59_PitchMP4x.mov

-My explanation of the shot differs a bit between the video segment and the drawing segment. The drawing segment represents my more recent thoughts.

-In the video I sometimes turn my head almost sideways to the camera. Don't do that in posing.

-the chor has two cameras. "2_01_59" is the camera we will render. "AnimatorsCam" is a stationary cam you may want to use since it stays put and is reasonably close to the angle the moving cam will see.

-first pass, just the poses. Don't worry about animation or inbetweens.

- the music will be edited to extend "we're off to SEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" for four more beats so the play range to 254 is correct even though the audio stops before then.

thanks, Dhar!

[robcat2075]

Shot 2_01_58 is for Holmes. It's killer! (aren't they all?)

2_01_58_pitchMP4.mov

your shot 55 is done, I'll try to get to final notes on it ASAP.

thanks, Holmes!

[robcat2075]

Hi guys, just an FYI... After the current shots are done we may have to go on hiatus. Almost every shot remaining needs a generic winkie or a generic Bandmember and so far no one is available to model either one.

[PF_Mark]

Hi guys, just an FYI... After the current shots are done we may have to go on hiatus. Almost every shot remaining needs a generic winkie or a generic Bandmember and so far no one is available to model either one.

What about the scenes leading into the song in tin man's room there is 2 of those? most of teh winkie stuff is in the background we could still work on main characters and add winkies as another step. Some of these scenes the winkies are going to be hair winkies so that's a special affect thing not animation?

[robcat2075]

What about the scenes leading into the song in tin man's room there is 2 of those?

yes. at most that might be one or two shots. My hope was to make them just the minimum necessary to bridge the continuity between the sequences.

most of the winkie stuff is in the background we could still work on main characters and add winkies as another step.

Possible but not desireable. I'm thinking of making some Winkie sized blocks to stand in because I really need them there to compose the shot properly.

Some of these scenes the winkies are going to be hair winkies so that's a special affect thing not animation?

Even the hair winkies will need to have several winkies posed and slightly animated in order to render the maps that will go on the hair. And in any scene with hair winkies there is a row of real winkies in front of them to hide their flatness.

What we need now is a proxy with the appropriate controls built in for varying its shape and color. The same proxy could be used for both the Winkies and the Band members.

[robcat2075]

Here's brief exercise I'd like everyone to try...

Open the project, choose the camera view and play the simple bouncing ball animation.

 BallBounces.zip   529.29KB   41 downloads

Is it in synch with the beat of the music? In a way it is, because it's bouncing at the same tempo as the music, but it is really hitting on the beat?

Try sliding the sound file in the timeline until it does seem on the beat. (click it once, then drag; don't just move the starting point)

Keeps sliding it until it's off again.

Is there one spot that seems best? Is there a range?

Post your answers.

[PF_Mark]

Here's brief exercise I'd like everyone to try...

Open the project, choose the camera view and play the simple bouncing ball animation.

 BallBounces.zip   529.29KB   41 downloads

Is it in synch with the beat of the music? In a way it is, because it's bouncing at the same tempo as the music, but it is really hitting on the beat?

Try sliding the sound file in the timeline until it does seem on the beat. (click it once, then drag; don't just move the starting point)

Keeps sliding it until it's off again.

Is there one spot that seems best? Is there a range?

Post your answers.

Ok here I go

When I scrub through the animation it is time perfectly with the words and the contact tact point or hit of the ball and floor. Once I hit the play button it's not timed right?

I think I have an idea why the video is before the audio once a play it and this is because the difference between the speed of sound and the speed of light. What stop right there mark that's not right at all

Ok I realized the opposite thing is happening the sound is before the video and I had to rethink his through and I am getting dizzy watching this Ok 2nd attempt the reason the sound is early is that my mind is seeing the squash as main hit it reads more in my mind then the contact point so it looks better to me if I drag the sound file back 2 frames maybe 3 but 2 I think is better once you get to 4 5 6 the beat is timed more to he stretched point of the bouncing ball.

Now I have a problem and I don't know this just might be me and how I feel about this but once the song gets to the rest the bounce is ? anoying to me I know it's probably still in time but it does not read right in my mind I had the same thoughts when I was playing with tinmans sqash and stretch I made the stretch longer during the transaction of the 2 poses the foot still bobs in time but the strech is done over two beets and I personally like this better than a sqash stretch during the rest which does not look right. When I act out this ( I hope noboby was watching ) I found myself not bouncing on the rest just changing positions. Then I start bouncing in 2nd pose and hopefully still in time

So I hope I am not to far off and I hope alot of viewers try this exercise out it's informative

One other thing I thougt of is ever see the disney sing along videos were they have the words to eh song and a bouncing ball hitting words when you are supposed the sing the words, They do not hit on notes but words when I rest in the song comes the ball slowly arcs over the rest. Maybe this is stuck in my mind and is that I am trying to create?

[robcat2075]

Is Mark the only one brave enough to try? It only takes a few minutes.