Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

almost 2D model with a rig & a twist


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 31 March 2010 - 11:18 AM

hi, not much traffic 'round these parts? let's see what happens; nearly-newbie-to-a:m filmmaker/animator wishes to get going with a very first 3D project in a month - 6 weeks. looking for a technically skilled person who knows this program well, and who enjoys the absurd, willing to build and rig a deceivingly simple-looking character. there's already one boneless character =the basic finished shape to start from. your job would be to add detail if needed to facilitate future use, hair etc; duplicate the character then connect the two; resulting in one character, one IK, breakable to FK. there's also a turning-scenario, which in the rather 2D world might mean a third singular character = a second doubled character with different IK/constraints is needed. naturally there are several ways to go about this so i need someone who can see the options, understand their ramifications and choose the rational approach. production time is at least a year, doing this on my pauper own, half time. half of that time goes to studying animation/cgi and i usually weave between two projects -believe it or not- for efficiency. i'll buy you something i can afford from cdon.com; music or film; nice value for money = for your time. looking forward to hearing from you contact me at doublehlx aaaaat yahoo ceeohmm
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#2 pixelplucker

pixelplucker

    Mentor

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1697 posts
  • Ken Citron
  • USA
  • Windows

Posted 03 April 2010 - 06:42 PM

Do you have a sketch on the character or rough model people can see? There is a good chance you can rig it yourself since rigging in AM isn't as scary as many think.

For characters that don't typically fit the biped form you can use TSM2 rigging system found here http://www.anzovin.com/products.html
This should allow you to rig complex character types.

If your rigging a typical biped then the 2008 rig may be better for you and allow you to use actions on other characters that use the same rig. This is a greatly improved rig that is similar to the 2001 rig which is pretty much outdated for most the folks.

Rigging in AM is fairly straight forward and there are tons of support in the rigging section of the forums.

As far as 2d characters you can usually use the same 3d models and simply render them as toons. The toon render mode is really nice in AM and produces very smooth curves on the outlines especially compared to poly based models.

I may be able to help with the model but can't commit to time because work always interferes with the fun stuff.

#3 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:52 AM

Do you have a sketch on the character or rough model people can see?


i was trying to avoid the term paper doll, but, ok, it's a paper doll. made of rough aquarelle paper by precise tearing (fluffy edges);
one head
with two bodies
no arms
= torso and hip; thigh leg foot toe -parts; all with back and front, up&down differences.
one body walks the right way up and the other upside down above it, the head in the proper place uniting them. for starters. then it gets complicated. like, "when there's a will there's a way" but what if there are two wills in one head and a hole in the ground?

the dolls move as one being, but they will also be separated (and headless), and change walking directions. one of them will use its legs as propellers in one scene. it's basically a cut-out film. it starts as a "photoreal" replica with the characteristic chops of discontinuous motion here and there. in throes of first conflict speed excludes chops and beziery smoothness prevail till the end, but the "stacking of parts"-principle is used for dismantling the character = he can "crumble to a heap" of pieces of paper instead of "curling up in fetal position" like a humanoid). scaling of parts is introduced for ittybitty&increasing stretch&squash. the camera is an actor in the end and i'm busting the fourth wall by "showing the studio" with the bits of paper and backgrounds on the glass panes.

i'm curious to learn how the IK in 3D can help animating the head as the axis of two dynamics. but right now i feel just lost and stupid trying to plan these different stages since i've no facts or experience to judge by, and lack of knowledge means too complicated and time consuming scene structures. i'm dying to improve at animation and story-telling, yet every project is swamped with learning one to three other occupations.

http://www.anzovin.com/products.html
This should allow you to rig complex character types.


thank you! there's a quadroped digitigrade in a pending project, TSM will be a big help! (it used to be a cat but then along came Shane Acker. no more cat.) this instant all effort is going to grappling with the "what is real?" of the film. i've been reading about maps, bumps and normals, on these stunningly helpful boards, hair is next. the white bubbly paper parts will of course be defined by shadows, and light will even be a character in the end, so "appearences" are a priority right now.

I may be able to help with the model but can't commit to time because work always interferes with the fun stuff.


what kind of time table are you living - maybe freelance with no possibility to plan? flexing my brainmuscle to see the first scene as pure cut out motion, with just constraints for levels so parts move as if on a glass and in a fixed 'piled-up-order'. if anything here made you want to join, please let me know! i'm at finishing stages of another project with deadline in the middle of June, but would like to get a sense of the 3D in this project as soon as possible, since i expect the story to evolve through the technical possibilities.
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#4 pixelplucker

pixelplucker

    Mentor

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1697 posts
  • Ken Citron
  • USA
  • Windows

Posted 05 April 2010 - 04:37 PM

It sounds like you may need to render out and do some post composting for the various effects. As far as the model goes you could model it flat and use cookie cutter and or opacity maps along with a descent bump and texture. There are 2d applications like Toonboom and Anime but I think AM has the benefits of being able to re-use actions and poses. You can rotate the whole model and the balance rig stays with the model to you can make it walk upside down. The bones can be constrained from one model to another over time and values can be on/off or percentage and keeping that in mind you would have 2 separate rigs but use one as your main and have the other follow or mimic. I would highly suggest story boarding the whole thing out even if it is crude to make things easier. I'm self employed and tend to get buried with rush jobs so to schedule out monster projects gets pretty tricky.

#5 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 06 April 2010 - 06:48 PM

this was very helpful!
since i'm not familiar with 3D, just the fact that you mention certain terminology will steer my studies in the right direction. the film is really short and only seven scenes (now...) so it's a realistic first project, but you've probably just saved me a month. thank you!

It sounds like you may need to render out and do some post composting for the various effects.

AE is home sweet home, and it'll be a hoot to learn masks and color manipulation on a new level for boosting the photorealism in torn white paper.

for those reading this and interested in post production, this page might perk up interest:
more stuff in the list on the right. he works in fusion now, but you can train your eye and fill your think-tank regardless.
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#6 pixelplucker

pixelplucker

    Mentor

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1697 posts
  • Ken Citron
  • USA
  • Windows

Posted 07 April 2010 - 02:43 PM

Nice tutorial for AE. You can do some of the compositing within AM using rotoscopes.

#7 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:10 AM

okay, scratch that. now that this pre-prod-period is drawing to a close, i'm loosing the rig altogether and choosing a true-to-life cut-out technique. loosing the hip&toes as well, since motion is built on different premises. have had poodles of fun with the fact that my pre-viz for a 3D film has been done with a camera and real paper dolls. the cookie has crumbled again!
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#8 pixelplucker

pixelplucker

    Mentor

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1697 posts
  • Ken Citron
  • USA
  • Windows

Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:29 AM

You can rig patches that have the cookie cut maps on them so they look like paper cutouts and simply toss the tsm2 rig on it. This will give you the fk and ik you would want to create descent movements.

#9 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 30 April 2010 - 10:32 AM

hey, thanks for getting back, searched the cookie cutter when you first mentioned it; ~"it tells the program to render a hole". did not understand at all that this would help me make a piece of paper but i see now i didn't have enough information. more importantly: - still hoping that these shapes could have 'fluff' linings, as if torn from thick cellulose and fibers were left sticking out. don't i need patches along the sides to assign hair to? - not finished with story components, and am planning/hoping for a perspective as if camera were placed on the glass where the doll lies, giving a side view with the shadow& reflection on the glass. would a sideless patch give a "realistic" feel? - when taking photos of the actual dolls on an actual glass, discovered by Coincidence a way to help show physics by the placement of the head in relation to the bodies that was so! good! it's a keeper. can i move a head in relation to a body in a rig? - scaling a neck bone maybe...? - at the same time, discovered the legs are a complete bore most of the time and i'll need bones to speed up boring animation = i'll be making a primitive puppet-on-a-string rig. i believe the only constraint needed throughout is 'orient as' so the dolls will "stay on the glass" automatically. you've probably no clue how scary a swamp the whole 'material&rendering' business seems to a beginner. i've decided to start with a simple leg rig then just animating my crude models till in serious need of change (and letting the story finish brewing). with my current deadline and my dayjob swallowing the entire summer, we're in october by that time! so i'll be quiet for a bit but the problems will come. rest assured on your nice kitchen chair..
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#10 johnl3d

johnl3d

    Tinkering Gnome

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6892 posts
  • Milwaukee WI
  • Windows
  • Programmer:enough to be hazardous

Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:36 PM

made this up after borrowing image from the net Attached File  fpig.mov   524.34KB   105 downloads Attached File  flatpig.prj   42.62KB   104 downloads decals not included sorry but this took 30 minutes half getting the decal...making illustrator paths from parts importing decalling then quick bones/action/ render

http://johnl3d.blogspot.com/

Video

"Try not! Do or do not. There is no try." Yoda

"Some people dream of accomplishments...
others stay up late and do them" Probably an Animator


#11 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 01 May 2010 - 05:06 PM

oi! it's a giddy piggy! i can only download the .prj file about this time tomorrow, so not able to comment on findings till then. it's.. not entirely unlike christmas. suspecting the best reply will be to post your giddy piggy right back at you. no no, wait, you're the one who can make fire? - expecting to find matches. you're giving me a tummy ache just by using the word 'sorry' in there. but i'm onto you, you little holographic bunch of youse; you trap the unsuspecting newbies with overflowing kindness, reel them in while they're paralysed by the weight of their gratitude and 1,2,3 - they're A:M devotees for life.
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#12 robcat2075

robcat2075

    occasional smarty-pants

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23617 posts
  • Robert Holmén
  • *Moderator*
  • Dallas, Texas
  • other
  • Windows
  • Programmer:NO

Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:50 PM

- still hoping that these shapes could have 'fluff' linings, as if torn from thick cellulose and fibers were left sticking out. don't i need patches along the sides to assign hair to?


A cookiecut map can make any shape you want. If the edge of the alpha channel is ragged-looking you get a ragged edge. I painted this, but if you scanned a torn paper with enough detail you could capture that "fluff" and use that in your alpha channel.

TornPaper.png

Attached File  TornPaper.zip   198.21KB   48 downloads


Look at the "Cookie" map in an app like Photoshop that can show you the alpha channel and see how the RGB channels give you the color and the alpha channel makes the shape.

Robert Holmén
------

Got an A:M question? Come to Live Answer Time.   Saturdays, Noon CST

Watch the 2017 "Summer Memories" Image Contest Awards

 

My tutorials All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about.
 
this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests

87,848 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube

Big thanks to... Roger (again!), Shelton (it's huge!), NancyGormezano, Roger, cribbidaj, thefreshestever, Tom, Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar!


#13 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:28 PM

flatpig.prj ( 42.62k ) Number of downloads: 1

(had to open it in browser window) :blink:


A cookiecut map can make any shape you want.

figures. it's a map. and a real cookie cutter always does two things.

[attachment TornPaper.png]
yes i see, thank you! i think that'll be really helpful in speeding up renders with full/total shots.
there's something that probably needs clarification:
so not dodging a smart way to make a paper doll! :)
this "fluff" lining, it sort of brings a corporeal dimension to these faceless, armless abstractions of life. what's missing from all above descriptions, is the crucial part the 3D plays. the fluff might sound like a - - oh well; but what it is, is the blood and guts of this character and we get to see them up close. the 3D fluff is really very necessary. that one 5sec scene, even if it's the only one, is going to be worth all the work it takes to make it as "real" as possible.
when nothing at all happens (you're watching silhouettes on one color background), the impact of whatever happens will be magnified by contrast.
this level of the story is still very raw, that's why i've not been explaining it with due emphasis.
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#14 johnl3d

johnl3d

    Tinkering Gnome

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6892 posts
  • Milwaukee WI
  • Windows
  • Programmer:enough to be hazardous

Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:43 PM

to download it right click and save otherwise here it is as zip file Attached File  flatpig.zip   12.76KB   68 downloads

http://johnl3d.blogspot.com/

Video

"Try not! Do or do not. There is no try." Yoda

"Some people dream of accomplishments...
others stay up late and do them" Probably an Animator


#15 robcat2075

robcat2075

    occasional smarty-pants

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23617 posts
  • Robert Holmén
  • *Moderator*
  • Dallas, Texas
  • other
  • Windows
  • Programmer:NO

Posted 03 May 2010 - 10:28 PM

Hey dblhelix, the book arrived and it's in great shape Thank you so much! I wanted to send you an e-mail but there wasn't an e-mail option on your profile yet.

Robert Holmén
------

Got an A:M question? Come to Live Answer Time.   Saturdays, Noon CST

Watch the 2017 "Summer Memories" Image Contest Awards

 

My tutorials All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about.
 
this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests

87,848 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube

Big thanks to... Roger (again!), Shelton (it's huge!), NancyGormezano, Roger, cribbidaj, thefreshestever, Tom, Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar!


#16 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:54 PM

johnl3d;
thanks, just happened to click the link ordinarily first. your project was very helpful. looking into something simple was sort of a a non-scary opening into a dissection. i wanted matches and got them; spent all day yesterday eyes a-blaze in a:m trying to move the doll with intention, using a scene from the film.
yeah. no.
12 intense hours later had 2 (edit, wrote "min" first, but y'all guessed that it's:) seconds of rudimentary motion and taste for a kill. serious planning required. new software routines&defaults required. (touchpads have an option 'tap twice and the arrow will "grab"' - onto a bone - so i click again thinking it's now loose and ctrl+z = an entire "leg" vanished from hierarchies and revert did not bring it back. of course at the end of the scene. yes, re-do everything. only five hours).

manipulators absolutely necessary; testing the tsm2 rig next. will be needing a second subscription. hating splines. "eight everything!". "eee-except the ones you sevened." hating constant re-scaling of windows, need a 30" monitor. mysterious abundance of rotation values puzzles: "clean" oriented routines (constraints?) needed. stupendous amount of questions tower, the kind that don't start with "how" but "why" ;) . as in:
WHY does the selection frame in the white-red timeline window not move the selection? "please re-select in this window the selected from the curves window then move them"? yes cranky. tried-and-true recipe for that; taking it in little doses as fun&games, not within a result oriented production schedule. giving up deadlines not determination.


Hey dblhelix, the book arrived and it's in great shape Thank you so much! I wanted to send you an e-mail but there wasn't an e-mail option on your profile yet.

:) and in reasonable time, good to hear. my email is in the first post here, the spammers have already got it...
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#17 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 04 May 2010 - 03:58 PM

to humour one and all, here's the 12hr task, rendered in wireframe. first time uploading, fingers crossed Attached File  crabby.mov   792.58KB   81 downloads ha, it works!
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11

#18 robcat2075

robcat2075

    occasional smarty-pants

  • Hash Fellow
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23617 posts
  • Robert Holmén
  • *Moderator*
  • Dallas, Texas
  • other
  • Windows
  • Programmer:NO

Posted 04 May 2010 - 05:57 PM

to humour one and all, here's the 12hr task, rendered in wireframe.

first time uploading, fingers crossed

Attached File  crabby.mov   792.58KB   81 downloads

ha, it works!


If that isn't exactly what you were going for you may want to look at my "Simplest IK Leg" video, found in the screencam link in my signature. :)

Robert Holmén
------

Got an A:M question? Come to Live Answer Time.   Saturdays, Noon CST

Watch the 2017 "Summer Memories" Image Contest Awards

 

My tutorials All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about.
 
this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests

87,848 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube

Big thanks to... Roger (again!), Shelton (it's huge!), NancyGormezano, Roger, cribbidaj, thefreshestever, Tom, Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar!


#19 dblhelix

dblhelix

    Craftsman

  • Craftsman/Mentor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Windows

Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:12 PM

If that isn't exactly what you were going for you may want to look at my "Simplest IK Leg" video, found in the screencam link in my signature. :)

:D that's exactly what i was going for. though it needs pauses for a bit of drama. now it's a vegas wedding.

brilliant island looks nice, i'll bring sunscreen and dwell a bit, thanks! walkcycles are a bit like scales to a musician. wasn't it DaVinci who drew his own hand every morning, or so they say?
Vista Home; AMD Athlon dual QL62; 2GHz; Geforce 8200MG 4G; Wacom Intuos3 6x11




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users