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#1 robcat2075

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:47 PM

I'm looking into fixing some of the blips in TWO. Here I tried painting out a pass-thru. Attached File  BeforeAfterH.mov   702.89KB   287 downloads

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#2 NancyGormezano

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:35 PM

that works - good job

#3 HomeSlice

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:47 PM

That looks pretty good Rob!

#4 KenH

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 03:48 PM

It could be compression, but I can make out where her legs were painted out. However, it took a second look to find it and I was looking. Good job. Is this going to be incorporated in to TWO?
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#5 robcat2075

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 04:57 PM

It could be compression, but I can make out where her legs were painted out.


No, ILM won't be calling me.


If I can get ahold of the original renders, I might pursue things like this. But this is on footage ripped from the DVD where almost every frame is a combination of two 24p frames which muddies things enormously.

They keep spinning in this and her legs come around two more times :angry:


The other thing I'm trying to figure out is how to bridge the spot where the music disappears.

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#6 robcat2075

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:38 PM

An attempt at filling the music gap. Attached File  SCSongbeforeAfter.mov   1.76MB   118 downloads

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#7 KenH

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:38 PM

Oh! That music gap. It didn't bother me so much. It was a little break for SC politeness. Alas, the bit you put in sounds....inserted.....to me.
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#8 robcat2075

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:42 PM

It bothers me a lot. Especially the way the sound cuts in the middle of a note and re enters in the middle of a note.

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#9 Shelton

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 02:58 PM

Much better. That was one of the places my 7 year old ask what happen when we were watching the DVD Steve
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#10 Rodney

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 04:52 PM

The pause in music appears intentional to me... it's an important beat (or... multi-beat?)

I believe what is needed is:
- Foley of Scarecrow's feet crunching straw as he walks toward the Strawgirl.

and/or

- Dialogue from Scarecrow such as 'Ahem... may I?" or... immediately after the music ends... "Pardon Mylady... wouldyoucareto dance?" (Note: I believe SC would have to say this pretty quickly to properly fit into the space)

If only we could get the voice talent for Scarecrow to reprise his role again. ;)

Regardless, it's great that you are refining these areas Robert!
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#11 robcat2075

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:21 PM

The pause in music appears intentional to me... it's an important beat (or... multi-beat?)

I believe what is needed is:
- Foley of Scarecrow's feet crunching straw as he walks toward the Strawgirl.

Foley is there already! It helps, but the music needs to not sound like the plug was pulled.

There's probably a better bridge that can be written, I'll continue to keep that in mind.


and/or

- Dialogue from Scarecrow such as 'Ahem... may I?" or... immediately after the music ends... "Pardon Mylady... wouldyoucareto dance?" (Note: I believe SC would have to say this pretty quickly to properly fit into the space)

If only we could get the voice talent for Scarecrow to reprise his role again. ;)

Regardless, it's great that you are refining these areas Robert!



Mostly my goal is find the most economical solutions I can. Simple drop in replacements that don't require re-animating anything or changing edit points.

There are shots that would benefit from re-rendering for lighting but that's a whole 'nother level I'm not stepping into yet.

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#12 robcat2075

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 12:39 PM

I'm entertaining any suggestions on how to remedy this shot in Chap 14 where Scarecrow walks thru a tree, without re-animating it. SCTree.jpg

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#13 HomeSlice

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:37 PM

Cut it? Paint out the log? Blur the legs more?

#14 mtpeak2

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:29 PM

To tell you the truth, I watched the youtube version over and over, and I really don't notice it. It happens so fast it looks like he steps over it.
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#15 robcat2075

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:37 PM

Cut it?
Paint out the log?


Those are valid gambits but not without continuity side effects. But possible.


Blur the legs more?


Hmmm... This one got me thinking about maybe repainting the legs to make them look like they are being lifted higher.

If no one looked at it too closely...

I could rotoscope the legs onto a separate layer, fill in the background from a previous frame, manipulate the legs like cutout animation pieces to higher poses and then airbrush over that to smooth it out. There's about 24 frames that woudl need this. Ouch. :rolleyes: ;)



Of course, everyone would have to promise not to tell.

I'll think about that while I'm trying to do my SO shot.




More suggestions still welcome, boys and girls...

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#16 Rodney

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:36 AM

Two thoughts sprang to mind but I'd have to view the footage again to determine whether they could make sense in context. The first idea would be to create some kind of overlay that changes the entire sequence from SC stepping over a log to SC passing BEHIND a smallish bush or tree. This would likely be difficult considering he is right next to the creek. The second (perhaps it could even be combined with the first idea) would be to pan the current sequence through a new camera that effectively crops out those frames. Alternatively, depending on whether it works with adjacent shots you might be able to zoom in enough for the error to no longer be on screen. The big question with these approaches would be, 'Does it make sense in context with the entire sequence?'
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#17 robcat2075

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:48 AM

Alternatively, depending on whether it works with adjacent shots you might be able to zoom in enough for the error to no longer be on screen.


I think that may be the low-cost winner. Quick and easy to do. Thanks!

SCTreeCrop.jpg

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#18 robcat2075

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 07:10 AM

Here's a before and after on the crop. Attached File  Before_After_LogMP4.mov   895.56KB   93 downloads I also tried to undo the pass-thru of his hand on the log at the end; it still looks like it's going in a bit.

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#19 NancyGormezano

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 10:22 AM

If I can get ahold of the original renders, I might pursue things like this. But this is on footage ripped from the DVD where almost every frame is a combination of two 24p frames which muddies things enormously.


Looks good! Good solution Rodney! Good job Robert!

Did you get ahold of the original renders?

#20 robcat2075

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 02:47 PM

Did you get ahold of the original renders?


This was still DVD footage.

It turns out the whole movie is 320 GB so I've sent a hard drive to get the complete schmeer.

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#21 NancyGormezano

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:48 PM

It turns out the whole movie is 320 GB so I've sent a hard drive to get the complete schmeer.


Bueno.

So bubbellah, where did a nice Viking boy like you learn yiddish ?

No need for the whole megillah, but a kreplach or 2 wouldn't hurt. :D

#22 Rodney

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 06:43 PM

Executed beautifully Robert. :) Please keep posting these examples of TWO 2.0. There is a lot we can learn. Off Topic Note: This is a subtle thing... hardly worth mentioning... but in the larger scheme of things I am hoping that of the Oz movies currently planned TWO is identified as the second film in the series/trilogy. I'm not sure if this can work within continuity (Can 'The Marvelous Land of Oz' come first?) but there are some very practical considerations to it. As a promotional aspect alone, having the second movie billed as 'TWO' would be optimal.
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#23 robcat2075

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 06:47 PM

So bubbellah, where did a nice Viking boy like you learn yiddish ?


I'm sure I heard it while I was ordering a tongue sandwich at the deli in Anatevka.

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#24 robcat2075

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 10:31 PM

Does anyone know what the story is here? Why is Woot's monkey fur glowing? There are few shots where his fur appears to be reacting to the light appropriately, but are quite a few like this where he seems to be lit by lights that affect only him. Is it a setting on the hair that does this? overgreen.jpg This would be an easy DOF situation. Render the characters and screen with alpha to superimpose over the background rendered separately and blur the background. overgreenDOF.jpg

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#25 mtpeak2

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 12:54 PM

Most of the scenes are using lightlists with the regular lighting. You may need to turn the specularity option OFF for the light on his list, since he is probably getting specularity from the lights that are lighting the scene. Most, if not all, of the characters hair uses the muhhair shader, so adjustments may be needed there as well.
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#26 mtpeak2

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 01:16 PM

Unfortunately, someone monkeyed with the hair thickness on green monkey (thickened the hair to lower the density), so rendering the scene over, the hair/fur won't look the same.
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#27 wedgeeguy

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 10:35 AM

Robert I don't envy you trying to correct the mistakes in a project that large. But I guess in the "real world" they have to do this all the time. So far, what you have done, is looking pretty good ... Nice Job!

#28 robcat2075

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 12:16 PM

Unfortunately, someone monkeyed with the hair thickness on green monkey (thickened the hair to lower the density), so rendering the scene over, the hair/fur won't look the same.


But I want it not the same!

I'm just trying to figure out how to get the not the same I want. :lol:


I'm not a hair guru, unfortunately.

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#29 KenH

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 01:07 PM

I think I reduced the density as it was taking waaay too long to render. But it didn't look like that when I'd finished.
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#30 NancyGormezano

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 02:05 PM

But I want it not the same!

I'm just trying to figure out how to get the not the same I want. :lol:

I'm not a hair guru, unfortunately.


If you render it with 15j+ - it probably won't be the same as anything, especially 14.

What is it that you want to do? - It will be hard to match the hair in the other scenes. Even with lighting changed probably. 15f might? render the same as the other scenes, without having to change the model or hair properties.

Are you wanting to just monkey (hoo hoo hee hee) with the dof? and/or change the brightness of the hair?

#31 robcat2075

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 03:43 PM

Here's where my viewpoint is on this: Glowing green florescent hair is not the right look for the green monkey. There is no way that bright glowing green hair like we see him sitting on in the above shot is "right" in any interpretation of the lighting of that room or any scene in which he appears in this movie. AFAIK there is nothing in the story that establishes that he would actually be glowing green. Something is completely out of whack to get the glowing hair result we see above. This isn't the only shot I'd change in that regard, but i present it as an example.

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#32 mtpeak2

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 05:04 PM

Did you look at the lightlist? Most likely the light in his list is translated and oriented like the camera. This light is producing way too much specularity on the hair. What scene is it?
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#33 mtpeak2

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 06:08 PM

Most of the scenes are using lightlists with the regular lighting. You may need to turn the specularity option OFF for the light on his list, since he is probably getting specularity from the lights that are lighting the scene. Most, if not all, of the characters hair uses the muhhair shader, so adjustments may be needed there as well.


As I said, green monkey has a light (constrained to the camera) aiming directly at him, at 90% intensity. Turning the specularity OFF in the light stops his fur from glowing or turn OFF the MuhHair shader in his hair properties. But, as you can see, his fur looks like feathers now.

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#34 robcat2075

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 07:26 PM

Thanks, that's a step in the right direction. Are there ray-traced lights on him? Shots like this that need re-rendering are lesser priorities just because they aren't simple fixes. But it's something I'd like to address and if you should ascertain what needs to be done to get him back to non-glowing, non-feather fur... write it down and I will probably investigate it eventually. At the moment I'm looking at fixes I can do for submission Festival deadlines on Monday.

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#35 mtpeak2

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 09:00 AM

Ok, here's the scoop. Originally the hair material was embedded in the model. Someone saved it out to a file. Then someone made changes to it, so the settings were wrong. In the project for this scene the original material was still embedded, so I was able to get the original settings. The only difference is that I turned shadows OFF in the hair properties. In this scene I don't think it matters, but there may be other scenes that it does. I did not change any light settings for this render (specularity still ON on light in list). Unfortuately the lights are raytraced (bulb and klieg lights) for this scene, so relighting is really not an option. Here's a test render. If this is exceptable, I'll upload the modified material to the SVN.

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#36 robcat2075

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 09:53 AM

That's better still.

Unfortuately the lights are raytraced (bulb and klieg lights) for this scene, so relighting is really not an option.


When you say "not an option" you mean...?





Here's a test render. If this is exceptable, I'll upload the modified material to the SVN.



Upload it with an alternate name, I'll look for it to swap in when I get to that scene

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#37 mtpeak2

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 10:25 AM

Well, if you want to relight all those scenes, be my guest. ;) You can't swap the material on the model, it will loose its grooming, it's all or nothing. Since the movie has be rendered to DVD already, I don't see this as a problem. I can save it as a new material, but the model will need to be saved as well with the changes. This may also create problems within the projects, it will now load 3 sets (there are 3 different materials applied to the model) of hair materials. The project will load 9 hair materials. Also, I just went through the DVD, all scenes with green monkey should be rerendered, IMO. All scenes will benefit from the hair changes. With shadows turned OFF in the hair system, rendering with the raytraced lights shouldn't be too much of an issue.
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#38 robcat2075

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 12:13 PM

You can't swap the material on the model, it will loose its grooming, it's all or nothing.


Even if you change the reference in a text editor?

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#39 mtpeak2

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 12:16 PM

I don't know?
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#40 mtpeak2

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 01:32 PM

Yes, you can change the reference in a text editor. So, since it appears you don't want my help fixing up TWO, you can find the original hair materials embedded in a project that the green monkey is in.
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#41 robcat2075

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 08:02 AM

If you want to help that would be great. It just seemed that since I was the last person to see this movie and no one else had embarked on anything like this before me that there wasn't great enthusiasm for it. Right now I'm just trying to get in the easy cut-and-paste fixes I can do without Premiere. Then I'm gong to wait and see if any of the festivals bite (long shot I know). If someone does then I'll jump back in try to do the more complicated fixes for their show. If you want to try re-lighting that scene so it makes sense and has a feasible render, that woudl be great.

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#42 mtpeak2

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 02:49 PM

I'm not very good at interior lighting, especially with klieg lights (z-buffer). I barely get by with exterior lighting, though there are a few scenes that need fixing (someone renamed the rig I was using for lighting in the chor, to a bone that was in the rig and it broke some of the poses). With a few fixes here and there, the movie can be very good. And since someone was actually trying to fix some of these issues, I figured I would help out. But alot of the fixing will require some rerendering. As I was saying, the scenes with green monkey need to be rerendered, but we may be able to render the scenes using the null shader with green monkey excluded. That would speed up rerendering those scenes.
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#43 robcat2075

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 07:45 PM

an experiment... I put in a spin transition to bridge the jump cut between them rolling down the hillside and then being all tied up in the next shot.

Attached File  Spin.mov   1.01MB   88 downloads


It took AfterEffects half an hour just to render those spinframes.


I'm not very good at interior lighting, especially with klieg lights (z-buffer). I barely get by with exterior lighting, though there are a few scenes that need fixing (someone renamed the rig I was using for lighting in the chor, to a bone that was in the rig and it broke some of the poses).

With a few fixes here and there, the movie can be very good. And since someone was actually trying to fix some of these issues, I figured I would help out. But alot of the fixing will require some rerendering. As I was saying, the scenes with green monkey need to be rerendered, but we may be able to render the scenes using the null shader with green monkey excluded. That would speed up rerendering those scenes.


There's a lot of shots in Mrs Yoop's castle where I think the lighting could be simplified, made faster, and be more cinematic looking. The catch is you have to light each shot for itself rather than setting a room up once.

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#44 Rodney

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 01:32 AM

I haven't seen too many spin transitions that worked outside of perhaps the Batman TV show... but that looks quite spiffy! :) (translation: It works!)
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#45 mtpeak2

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 01:10 PM

Did I mention that I don't have a clue to interior lighting?
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#46 robcat2075

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:11 PM

Did I mention that I don't have a clue to interior lighting?


Yup. If you just identify how to get the monkey to look right, that would be half the battle.

It seems like both tin owl and green monkey have a light aimed at them from the camera which is not like anything else in the room. Is that the case?

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#47 mtpeak2

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 06:27 PM

If you just identify how to get the monkey to look right, that would be half the battle.

Hmm, I thought I explained all this.

Originally the hair material was embedded in the model. Someone saved it out to a file. Then someone made changes to it, so the settings were wrong. In the project for this scene the original material was still embedded, so I was able to get the original settings

Save the embedded hair materials to file and swap them in a text editor. Or fix the settings in the hair material being used now.

It seems like both tin owl and green monkey have a light aimed at them from the camera which is not like anything else in the room. Is that the case?

Yes, this is the case for all the main characters throughout the whole movie, not my doing.
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#48 robcat2075

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 06:25 AM

Well, this was a bitch to render and now that I know how to make the trees not flicker I'll probably end up doing it all over again, but here it is... the parade scene! Attached File  2_01_80_74ParadeMusicSmall.mov   1.4MB   132 downloads Marching Band animated by Ken Heslip Winkie Bystanders animated by Mark Allen

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#49 Paul Forwood

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 06:36 AM

URGon.jpg Ha! Never noticed that before. What is your reason for wanting to render this scene again, Robert? Was there a major flaw in it that needed fixing before submitting to festivals?
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#50 robcat2075

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 06:44 AM

What is your reason for wanting to render this scene again, Robert? Was there a major flaw in it that needed fixing before submitting to festivals?


No reason other than the version in the movie doesn't have the lighting, the camera work, the waving crowd, the rabbit or the background.

Or this...

URGon.jpg
Ha! Never noticed that before.



It was set up and ready to go, so it's an inexpensive upgrade.

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