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Action trouble with Tinwoodman


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#1 robcat2075

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 03:35 PM

I've uploaded a chor (2_01_91_ChorToActionTest.cho) that has stripped everything down to the basic problem:

when we go from Tinwoodman keyed into a particular pose in the chor to an action that has him in the same exact pose, we get a result in the arms that is not like what was keyed in either the chor or the action.

screencap movie showing problem:

2_01_91_ChorToAction0001.mov

note that the biceps and shoulder pads seem to be the only bones going off course. Everything else seems to be maintaining it's position as expected


We need this to work so that we can smoothly go from non-repeating animation (keyed in the chor) at the beginning of a scene to a walk cycle. The alternative is to animate each individual step in the chor and that would be a lot of steps.

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#2 HomeSlice

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 05:09 PM

Does one of the actions have "maintain shoulder orientation" (or whatever its called) set to ON and in the other it set to OFF?

#3 KenH

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 05:10 PM

One thing's for sure......it's a problem with the chor action and not the action. If you delete the chor action, then his arms go back to normal. Still investigating. Edit: I take that back. Holmes you might be right. When you turn off the "maintain orientation with shoulder" poses in the chor action, this arms go the exact same wrong way. Those poses are on in the action, so for some reason, they're not registering in the chor. Still investigating. Edit1: Deleting those poses in the action has no effect on the arms in the action. Weird. Something in the pasting might be off.
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#4 robcat2075

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 05:31 PM

Something is up with that maintainorientation control... this is very weird:

2_01_91_poseOnOffProblemMP4.mov

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#5 robcat2075

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 05:38 PM

Edit1: Deleting those poses in the action has no effect on the arms in the action. Weird. Something in the pasting might be off.


If I delete those User properties from the Action it does affect the arms; they go up to the unwanted position.

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#6 robcat2075

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 05:48 PM

oooo..... I think i got it.... It seems to be the fact that A:M is encountering those poses set to ON in an Action after they have already been set to ON inthe chor that is somehow the problem. But if I just delete the poses from the Action, the arms ar no longer inthe positions we want them to be in. However... If I turn the poses OFF then back ON inthe action, that sets the arms to a position not wanted that is inthe opposite direction from the above mentioned unwanted direction, THEN... If I now delete the poses from the action that gets them back to their desired starting position without those poses needing to be ON. Now when the chor hits that Action in the timeline the arms do not jump. Very strange. So I guess the workflow is to animate the action with the pose on, then do the on-off-delete procedure before using the Action in the chor. Another day lost to TWO!

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#7 robcat2075

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 05:53 PM

Ok that seems to work for the arms.... but what pose could I do that same manuver to to fix the jumping shoulder pads and also the fingers on his left hand that are doing weird stuff at the transition. those maintain orientation poses were the only ones being used in that action.

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#8 itsjustme

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 05:58 PM

The "maintain orientation with shoulder" Poses would twitch in certain circumstances...the shoulder "steady" Poses as well. It is fixed in the next version of the rig (in the next couple of weeks), but, I can't fix it in the TWO characters without affecting previous animation, unfortunately. Those Poses shouldn't affect the fingers though...I have no idea why that would happen.

#9 KenH

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 07:37 PM

but what pose could I do that same manuver to to fix the jumping shoulder pads and also the fingers on his left hand that are doing weird stuff at the transition.


Deleting the finger control bones in the action fixed it for me. They're already controlled by the CFingers_Left bone.
And for the eyes, deleting the eye control bone in both the action and chor action did it. They're already controlled by the null.
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#10 PF_Mark

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 08:10 PM

Thankyou guys so much I will see if I ca recreate these fixes and get back to finishing TWO!
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#11 robcat2075

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 08:17 PM

Thanks Ken.

Is this phenomenon because Squetch rig uses expressions? something is getting calculated twice?

that's all i can think of because in all my previous experience using actions (except for this which must be related) an action set to "replace" wasn't influenced by chor keys.

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#12 robcat2075

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 08:29 PM

Well, the ON-OFF-Delete thing may not work.

It does get the first key frame positioned to where it should be, but any subsequent animation that depended on those maintain_orientation controls to isolate it from animated shoulder movements is no longer going to be correct.

that's what I am finding on the Scarecrow animation mentioned above.

The TinWoodman shot is Mark Allen's and I really would like to find a solution for that one. Is there a version of the TinWoodman with the fixed Squetch rig already made? We could try swapping it out.

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#13 itsjustme

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:04 PM

Is this phenomenon because Squetch rig uses expressions? something is getting calculated twice?


I don't think so. The twitching I've seen is because the steady arm and shoulder needed another layer of bones for the baking to work correctly.

Is there a version of the TinWoodman with the fixed Squetch rig already made?


No...the only character with the correction at the moment is the test version of Squetchy Sam that I should be posting sometime on Sunday for feedback (there are a lot of improvements besides the steady arm and steady shoulder Poses). I could make an alternate Tinman with just the steady arm and shoulder updates if necessary.

#14 mtpeak2

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 10:12 PM

Ok, I took a look at the chor. Here's what I did to fix it, I deleted everything from the action that wasn't needed, including the maintain poses. There are only 7 bones and nulls left that are keyed in the action. I uploaded a new chor with an embedded action to the svn. If this is what you are looking for, you can unembed the action and save over the existing one.
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#15 PF_Mark

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Posted 24 February 2008 - 07:13 AM

Ok, I took a look at the chor. Here's what I did to fix it, I deleted everything from the action that wasn't needed, including the maintain poses. There are only 7 bones and nulls left that are keyed in the action.

I uploaded a new chor with an embedded action to the svn. If this is what you are looking for, you can unembed the action and save over the existing one.


Thanks every one for the help I took a look at mtpeak2 chr and this give me the chr pose right but a T pose for the arms in the action. So If I go this route I could animate every thing but the arms in the action but do the hand waving in the Chr?
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#16 PF_Mark

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Posted 24 February 2008 - 08:45 AM

Ok thanks to alot of help from my friends I got it to work I pose is not the same but I tested it and I can now adjust it in the action and it works in the chr. I ended up cleaning up some un-used control points that fixed the hand. Then I un did the arm_maintain-shoulder_orientation with doing a on off frist this changed the arm later on but I got it back with copy pasting luckly I still in blocking stage in chr so I will have to touch up a few areas again but this save the action which I put alot of time into.

Attached Files


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