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#151 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:01 PM

This is a timing and composition check.

Any critical feedback very welcome.

I have a second version going through now with  slightly longer pauses at the start ad turn around.

The final version, if timing ok, will have a toon rendered figure in this setting.

simon

 

Attached File  Nosey.mov   13.09MB   7 downloads

 

Following feedback on Facebook , this is the revised version.Attached File  Nosey 02.mov   11.28MB   7 downloads


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#152 robcat2075

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:34 PM

Not sure if I'll have the chance to redo itfor a while as it was taking 15-20 mins each frame  to erase the  non toon sections to reveal the toon underneath.


Explain this some more... I think you are doing something that doesn't need to be done manually.

Show a picture.

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#153 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:26 AM

Robert

Thank you for your feedback once again.

Here are the  different layers of the  process. The main time consuming part was in erasing the  full render sections to allow the toon render to show through.

It was either this way or  overlay the Toon on top. Either would result in a lot of erasure work to get the correct alignment  (?)

 

This is the final composite look with the  three layers, the Clouds were added after render  due to an oversight on my  part.

 

NHF S8F 000 .png

 

This is the separate Toon  layer

 

NHF S8T 000 .png

 

This is the full render with the Toon elements erased

There  are some small elements  left in place which initially I went back and removed but  then kept because it  had the effect of making those figures slightly more lively (?).

 

regards

simon

Attached Thumbnails

  • NHF S8 000 .png

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#154 robcat2075

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 06:04 AM

So you want part of a model to be toon and part regular render, right?

 

You can do that in one pass with groups. 

In the surface properties for the model set Toon Lines>Thickness to be zero and the Toon Shading Method to be "Standard"

 

Then make a Group for the parts you want to be toon lined and shaded and and set your desired  toon settings for those.

 

When you render, set Toon Render ON, but leave its sub switches OFF

 

Let me know if that doesn't work.

 

If you want to come to Live Answer Time I can walk you though that.


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#155 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:29 AM

Robert

Thank you very much for your help. I shall try that later today.

Unfortunately I won't be able to get to Live Answer Time this week as I've got some analog 3D to do, ( making some stop frame  'stages ').

regards

simon


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#156 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 11:50 PM

Robert

Thank you very much indeed for your help with that problem. I tried it overnight and it  worked as you say. Rodney suggested it to me a few weeks ago but I misunderstood the process, thank you both. It should cut production time enormously, Although I might have to redo some earlier scenes.

regards

simon

 

Attached File  Nosey 03.mov   25.87MB   6 downloads

 

 noticed some mesh penetration that hadn't been visible before so redoing it now.


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#157 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 12:31 PM

Heading home.

This is when he gets passed by an ambulance.

Lead in to the final scene.

Supposed to be driving in patchy fog.

No sirens as yet.

Sound comes later.

Any feedback gratefully received.

simon

 

Attached File  NHF S10.mov   10.84MB   8 downloads


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#158 robcat2075

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 06:36 AM

On the "Nosey" clip, I'm not sure of the meaning of him seeing himself in the binoculars.  That is what is suggested by the image of himself in the lens? But he's supposed to be seeing someone else, right?

 

The flashing in "NHF" is a tough effect to do. The hard edge of the light cones inside the car seems odd. Do you have a reference of the effect from a live action moviemaybe?

 

Typically in shots where a light is shining in there will be lots of edge lighting effects on objects that are almost but not quite silhouetted.  I painted some in on the man's face. There would be something like that on almost every light side edge.

NFSPink.jpg

 

NFSCyan.jpg

 

 

 

 

Perhaps UK emergency vehicles have different color lights but I would expect them to be more red and blue, than pink and cyan.

 

NFSRed.jpg

 

NFSBluer.jpg

 


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#159 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 05:52 AM

Robert

Thank you for your feedback. Very much appreciated.

To try and respond in order.

 

The reflections in nosey were a byproduct of the setup but, I liked the result so decided to keep them.

It came about because he is standing in front of a glass window and the reflections off the window  go back into the glass of the binoculars.

I  liked it because of the  claustrophobic impression and, at risk of being pretentious, the visual qualities of it, Shapes within shapes, the eye in the small inset.

 

The colours were wrong  in NHF S10.mov so I redid them when Tore pointed it out to me on FB. In the UK, and I think in the rest of Europe, the emergency vehicles use  Blue lights. The image in my head was  really  from US films and TV. I tried some  further tests, including only blue, but went with Blue and a very red orange in the end because it was more dramatic and added to the drama. I rendered it over night. and changed it to a POV shot from the drivers seat.

 

Some of the files were taking a very long time to render ( nearly three hours with 5 passes ) because there are six lights, all with volumetric settings. All the  lights are shadow mapped rather than ray traced, with a map resolution of 4096x.

 

This was the redone version

Attached File  NHF S10B.mov   11.58MB   6 downloads

 

 

With regard to the hard edge. I don't  know what might be causing that ?

Initially it was on a 100% quality setting to try and cut down on the render times. Have just spent several hours trying to find the cause of the hard edges but to no avail.

Screen Shot 2017-05-31 at 13.15.37.png

 

Wondered if it might be the model so tried this too but, as you can see, that was not the cause.

I removed the models and decals.

This is the movie without models, just the lights.

Notice the  hard edge is there at the start

Attached File  A Lights.mov   1.45MB   6 downloads

 

This is the cho file

Attached File  Ambulance Lights.cho   26.13KB   8 downloads

 

regards

simon

 

 

Edit

 

 

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  • Screen Shot 2017-05-31 at 14.27.38.png

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#160 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 11:18 AM

Start of the final scene.

This is the first pass at the acting so, any critical feedback very welcome indeed.

 

The scenario is, they are sitting in a hospital corridor awaiting news about the  Grandmother who  has had a motorcycle accident on the way home from the party for her golden wedding anniversary,

( I think 50 years is golden, or is it Ruby ? )

 

Attached File  NHF S12.mov   8.83MB   7 downloads

 

No real lighting work as yet and the render settings will be mixed properly later.

simon


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#161 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 09:11 AM

A moment of oddness

Not the intended look but, these are the bits to be composited  in the final scene.

simon

 

Attached File  NHF S12Toon.mov   4.47MB   5 downloads


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#162 robcat2075

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 10:16 AM

If you made their clothes 0,0,0 black instead of invisible you could simplify the compositing.  Is there still a problem combining the toon and regular in one render?

 

 

 

I would experiment with a different treatment of the eye blinks.

 

Right now it seems they go like

 

(open percentage) 100-50-0-50-100

 

Change the middle so they are not the same going down as going up, maybe like this

 

100-75-0-25-100

 

or maybe the reverse of that

 

100-25-0-75-100

 

Adding an extra frame of zero might help them seem more weary and less flickery

 

100-75-0-0-25-100

 

 

 

 

Head turns will usually look better if they move in an arc rather than a straight path. Usually a small dip in the middle. They also will move faster in the middle and slow-in to the end position. It's very rare for anyone to turn their head in even increments from start to stop.


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#163 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 10:52 AM

Robert

Thank you again for your help and feedback.

I tried the files you were kind enough to  adapt for me.

I loved the AO effect and may have to redo the whole thing to get visual consistency ( will leave that for later though)

When I rendered them out I got this  result.

NHF S12AO  010.png

 

Tried to find out why the Perry figure came out so dark and, in the end decided to render  them out as toon to be composited afterwards. Using the  time to get on with  working out what to do next.

regards

simon

 


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#164 robcat2075

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 11:23 AM


Tried to find out why the Perry figure came out so dark and, in the end decided to render  them out as toon to be composited afterwards. Using the  time to get on with  working out what to do next.

 

 

 

 

Some sort of toon setting change I would guess.


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#165 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 02:01 PM

 

 

Some sort of toon setting change I would guess.

 

Robert

It seemed to happen when I was trying to  do the combined styles in one render, Toon and Standard, when AO was  selected, The curious part was that it affected one figure but didn;t seem to affect the other, female figure,.

I'll use the render time  length to have another look tomorrow. Its taking about 80 mins  per frame at the moment.As AO is set to 100%

regards

simon


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#166 robcat2075

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 02:05 PM

100 if you're sure you need 100, but I've never been that picky.  :)


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#167 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 06:46 AM

100  is so I get the best  I can but,

I can use the time to do other things.

One thing I do like about computers is that, while they are doing the grunt work, you can get on with other things.

A few years back, I had three machines rendering in the garden shed, while I animated in the living room. It was warmer in there  than the house. The joke being I was working about 550 hours a week or more !

regards

simon


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#168 itsjustme

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 06:01 PM

AO set to 70 has been good enough for me so far.

#169 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 07:41 AM

AO set to 70 has been good enough for me so far.

David

Thank you for your feedback. I'm still very new to AO  so thought  to go with best  quality for now. I can get on with other things while its working through too !

regards
simon
 
 
This is version with Toon rendered added.
Do the wobbly lines distract too much
May have to redo to get it right ?
 
The wobbly likes are caused by erasing the 'not needed' toon parts in compositing but, its awkward to get consistent line placement over time.
 
Attached File  NHF S012A.mov   29.07MB   4 downloads

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#170 robcat2075

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 08:39 AM

Is there a reason you're not doing the previously mentioned method of having Toon and regular render in one pass?


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#171 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 12:59 PM

Robert.

Thank you for your feedback ,here and on FB.

I tried the combined in one render but, for an unknown reason the Perry figure (  model modified from Jim Talbot's Sir Nigel model ) came out a lot darker than the other figures. I tried lots of  things to even it up but, in the end, went with the  composite method. I will have another look.

 

You mention turning all the non toon  parts to 0:0:0.  Is that in the cho or on the model properties and does that include the two figures in standard render?

regards

simon


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#172 robcat2075

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 01:41 PM

Make two copies of your Project.  Of course, all your models must be "embedded" for this.

 

Copy 1: For the models that have some Toon, set the groups that create Toon to black with no specularity. Leave everything else as is and render as usual.

 

 

Copy 2: For the models that have no toon at all, delete all the groups and set the whole model to black with no specularity. For the models that have some toon, delete all the groups that are not creating Toon and set them to black with no spec. Render the scene and you should get all black except the Toon parts.  Since this one is only toon surfaces you can save time by not rendering with AO.

 

These changes are made in the objects folder.

 

 

The two renders will composite exactly together with an "add" mode.

 

"Add" literally adds the RGB values from each render together. In this case the colored portions of each render (values greater than zero) will show through the black (zero) portions.

 

Different programs call "add" different names. Photoshop calls it "Screen" but After Effects calls it "Add".  A:M calls it "Add" in a  "Composite project".

 

We can talk of A:M composite projects if you don't have software that can do the "add"

 

 

Test this out with just one frame from each render first, to make sure you are getting the parts right.


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#173 robcat2075

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 08:47 PM

Pass 1 would look like this:

SimonCorridorTest_AOOnly000.jpg

 

 

Pass 2:

SimonCorridorTest_ToonOnly000.jpg

 

 

The composite with ADD:

SimonCorridorTest_AddComposite.jpg


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#174 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 04:58 AM

Robert

Thank you very much again, very much appreciated.

 

I did try it yesterday, and had a lot of trouble with AM crashing and png files not 'parseing'.

I  got there eventually, but it was a bit exasperating on the way.

 

I tried it in V18 to try to avoid problems when working  normally in V17.

 

Embedded all files as you suggested and followed the instructions you detailed.

 

When I tried to render the test files, using png as the output format, they would render  on screen and,when complete, if I closed the render window it would crash AM. Then, when opening the rendered file in photoshop,  it flagged a warning saying, 

 

it"could not parse the file'.

 

Tried several times, modifying the files accordingly, same result.

 

It eventually worked when the output format was changed to .tga

this is the PS'd composite.

S12.jpg

 

When rendered without OA this was the result

S Two toon 012 copy.jpg

Tried to  modify the surface values,  but without  success.

Tried the flat surface option, it worked but, was not the look I wanted.

Went back to first  settings and used AO  which seemed to cure the bleached out look. Render times  took a big hit though.

 

Going to try another test.

regards

simon

 


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#175 robcat2075

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 05:48 AM

When you turn off the AO you also need to turn down the Global Ambiance level in the Chor, otherwise you have lots of global light on things with no shading to counteract it.


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Big thanks to... Roger (again!), Shelton (it's huge!), NancyGormezano, Roger, cribbidaj, thefreshestever, Tom, Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar!


#176 Bobby

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 08:00 AM

I tested with your project

Toon_Tested.png

 



#177 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 11:52 AM

I tested with your project

attachicon.gifToon_Tested.png

 

Bobby

Gosh. Thank you very much.

You got a lot better results than me !

I've not tried IBL. Do you know of a good guide  for how to do it ?

Its too late to try it for this  project but  I'd like to try it  another time.

Regards

simon


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#178 Bobby

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 05:12 PM

I learned from this forum, I can't remember which topic.

This is pdf files, from this forum or web agep.biz, not sure

Attached File  AM_IBL_rendersetup.pdf   497.49KB   8 downloads



#179 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 01:06 PM

Bobby.

Thank you very much for your help.

regards

simon


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#180 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 01:23 PM

"Add" literally adds the RGB values from each render together. In this case the colored portions of each render (values greater than zero) will show through the black (zero) portions.

 

Different programs call "add" different names. Photoshop calls it "Screen" but After Effects calls it "Add".  A:M calls it "Add" in a  "Composite project".

 

We can talk of A:M composite projects if you don't have software that can do the "add"

 

 

Robert

Thank you. The renders are going through now. While I'm waiting for that, can I ask how you'd go about doing it in AM as a composite project?

I've tried it in PS, and it works but will be a very long job doing it frame by frame for1 30 frames.

Regards

simon


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#181 Bobby

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:24 PM

Hey! Simon

You can import image sequence and (post production) composite, color correction, edit, sound, etc... in Blender. I use Blender as A:M buddy.

ScreenShot_25600617_1045.png



#182 Simon Edmondson

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 04:12 AM

Hey! Simon

You can import image sequence and (post production) composite, color correction, edit, sound, etc... in Blender. I use Blender as A:M buddy.

attachicon.gifScreenShot_25600617_1045.png

 

 

Bobby

Thank you.

 I have Blender but have barely used it.

Robert  mentioned a way to do it in AM so I was going to try that.

I have  done some composite work in AM before but not a lot.

 

That's the character you used on your bike ride project isn't it, have you made a film with it ?

regards

simon


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#183 Bobby

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 07:07 AM

I think these will help you.

I printed from this forum long time ago, original page moved

AM_Composite_01_of_06.jpg

AM_Composite_02_of_06.jpg

AM_Composite_03_of_06.jpg

AM_Composite_04_of_06.jpg

AM_Composite_05_of_06.jpg

AM_Composite_06_of_06.jpg



#184 Bobby

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:56 AM

Simon
maybe, this clip will guide you  
bobby.in.th/index_2560_WIP25600602.html#clip






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