I'm in a quandry over what the 'motivation' for the characters in this scene might be. Why is SC walking down the corridor? He appears unperturbed by the appearance of Trot. Trot seems mildly concerned over the whereabouts of Capt Bill. Why does Scareecrow think there is something afoot? Then Trot seems to have a tantrum......

Do I animate as if both SC and Trot are desperately looking for Capt Bill? What is the preceeding scene/shot?

Cheers

Bump - just in case my update above isn't picked up as a new reply....

The way I read it is SC is wandering the castle as he doesn't sleep....probably walking away from Trot. I haven't listened to the actor portrayals, but Trot is running to inform SC that Bill is missing. (I assume she is looking for him in the previous shot). SC's intuition is telling him something is fishy from their experience with Krewl. Trots tantrum should be read as urgency to find Bill NOW!

That's kind of my take too. Although I just thought SC was out exploring the castle. I sure wouldn't want to spend th whole time cooped up in my room.

Thanks guys, that gives me something to work with

Cheers

OK, a start. FACE view of Trot Dialogue for review. I just wanted a very mild look of concern for this bit. Thoughts?

2_14_01

Cheers

Looks good 'nuff to me as-is David.
Some minor tweaks might be:
The mouth might close a bit between "I" and "Cannot".
The mouth might close much more on the "n" of "cannot"
The last sound of "I" is actually "EE". You could probably extend the "EE" pose from the last part of "I" all the way to the "not" of "Cannot".

I usually save lip sync till the last because it is mostly just tedious work unless there is a special close up shot where the character really needs to show something special going on with the lips. Purists will probably pummel me for that, but oh well

I have found a pretty good way to get acceptable lip sync done fast. This is the "production" method, mind you, not the "artistic" method.
Create a separate Action for the lip sync. In this Action, Only do the lip sync, not the other facial animation. (Do the other facial animation in a Chor Action)
Find the Null (or bone) that controls the Jaw Open/Close and nudge it to create channels for it. For Squetch rig, it is the Sync null. For LiteFace (Krewl, Gloria), it is the Jaw Control null.
Save the project. For some reason this is necessary for the channels to show up.
Select the channel that specifically causes the Jaw to go up and down. I believe on the Squetch face rig, it is the "Translate.Y" channel. For LiteFace (Krewl, Gloria), it is the "Translate.Z" channel.
Go into Channel View. The only channel viewable in the Channel window should be the Translate.Y or the Translate.Z channel (depending on the rig).
Click on the spline in the Channel View window 1 or 2 frames before the character speaks (generally) to place a keyframe with a value of 0 (mouth closed).
Go forward about 2 frames and click on the the spline again to set a keyframe, then drag the keyframe down (or up) to open the jaw the appropriate amount.
Go forward until 2 frames before the end of the word or syllable and click on the spline again to set a keyframe.
Go 2 frames forward and click on the spline again to set another keyframe, then drag the keyframe up to 0 to close the mouth, or up as far as appropriate to close the mouth the desired amount.
Go through the entire dialog this way to get the basic Jaw Open/Close keyframes set.
Then work on the "O" sounds.
Go back to frame 0 (or the first spoken word).
Select the Null that controls to "O" pose. In the Squetch Rig, it is Translate.X channel of the Sync Null. For LiteFace, it is usually the Translate.X channel of the Mouth Corners Master null.
Go through the entire dialog placing keyframes for the O sounds in the appropriate places.
Then work on the MPB/FV/EE sounds.
Go back to frame 0 (or the first spoken word).
Select the Null that controlls these poses. For the Squectch rig, it is the LipsNull. For LiteFace, it is the MPB_FV_EE null.
Go through the entire dialog, placing keys for the appropriate MPB/FV/EE poses.

Doing it this way, I'm able to knock out all the lip sync in a fraction of the time it used to take me.
Of course, this method may not work for you ... but it's worth a try anyway,


[Note]
The rule of thumb is: Allow 2 frames between a closed mouth and an open mouth.
For words that are spoken too fast to allow for the general rule of thumb, and you must place the keyframes only 1 frame apart, just barely open the mouth. This prevents the mouth from appearing to "pop" open and closed, while still allowing for the enunciation of the word or sylable.

Cool - thanks.

Up until now I had never used the Synch null. All my lip sinch had been via psoing every null and pose slider (ie the Jaw open pose slider) and it was tedious. Now I mainly use the Synch null and then teak the mouth pose with the other nulls as required - much quicker.

It also helps having real time playback (now possible with the new laptop) so I don't have to keep waiting for rendered .mov to see how I am going.

I'm starting with the lip synch this time because I need to think more about what is being said and when to figure out how I will animate the characters rather than just plod my way through and coming up with ideas on the fly.

Cheers

OK - new update - little more than blocking here. Your thoughts on the acting choice thus far.

Update

Do find some odd behaviour in this chor though. Sometimes the characters are in their default positions at the start and end of each chor (regardless of keys and blend) and otehr times they abide by their keys (just the first and last points in the chors). I find that it affects the positioning of the characters when I attempt character interaction (liekt he touching hands). Sometimes it's good then sometimes the hand/arm positions are appart. Not sure if this is a bug or just a quirk of the system.

Cheers

Most looks ok. The voice acting is a little "matter of fact", but we have what we have.

SC looks like he's on a conveyor belt into the arms of Trot. Maybe he might be stopped looking around at first and do a double take. Then walk toward Trot.

That might be a good idea. Maybe have him walk more slowly at first-maybe looking down, then stop and look in Trot's direction, register recognition, then walk faster a few steps to meet Trot.

Having the back of SC's hand facing Trot looks strange to me. I don't usually show the back of my hand to someone I am greeting as a friend, unless I am the Queen I suppose. I might place my hand on the other person's shoulder, or I might bend down and place my hands on my thighs if the person is short. Or I might extend one or both arms a little (palms up) in a "what's going on" gesture.

Also a general rule of thumb, though I forget this too from time to time is: Unless there is a good reason for doing otherwise, an actor's gestures should open the actor to the camera/audience, not close him/her off from the audience (There are exceptions of course) If you extend SC's far hand, instead of his near hand, it will open him up more to the audience and allow them into the scene.

We are always trying to evoke some kind of emotion/participation from the audience. We want them to feel included. It is hard as hell to do that, but that's the goal anyway.

Trot might reach out to SC in a "you're the only person who can help me" sort of way (kinda like you have).
SC's first instinct might be to try to soothe her in some way.
Then he processes her words and comes to a speedy conclusion - and it is not good. He might be worried, or maybe suspicious, or maybe even a little angry.
Then Trot builds on her initial emotion. She becomes even more emphatic or perhaps desperate "I want Capt'n Bill!"
SC will try to calm her down, maybe more strongly this time.
Then he will assume an air of reason with maybe some unintentional condescension. "So do I but we haven't got him" (SC does believe that anyone without manufactured brains like his, is inherently inferior. Though he does try to be sympathetic.)
Then, once reason has established itself over uncontrolled emotion, he reconnects with Trot through a gesture and presents his solution. "Let us find Pon to help us"

You can see what I mean about the default pose on frame 1. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.....

Anyway, added some head turns. I'm now thinking I should have had it turned the other way given there is nothing on the walls (shoud we add some painting or the like for him to look at?). I added a take but I think it might be too quick. Thoughts?

Update

To me it is not clear that he registers her before his double-take. His head should stop turning and fix on Trot for at least 6 frames before continuing it's rotation from right to left. Then he should pause walking (or at least slow considerably) for at least 6 frames while he does the double-take. Then speed up his walk to meet Trot.

If you want to add a picture to the hallway, go for it. But it doesn't bother me the way it is.

OK, played with the ease and inserted a couple of new chors to let me pause the steps and movement along the path. It's a longish pause (shorter ones didn't seem to work) but now I fear that last stride might be too big and too quick. Thoughts?

Update

I missed a post in there.... SC is reaching out to take Trots hand - much of this motion is still just blocking so it is coming from his side where the back of the hand is near the camera to and open hand when it gets to Trot. Plus, since the next camera shot needed to use his left hand, I didn't want all the action with just one of his arms. Although I could flip the action (hand to face) he would be facing more away from the camera.

Cheers

David,
I'm not a fan of the finger to the head pose but I like what you've got so far otherwise.
This is a lesson that apparently has to be relearned from time to time. (All those finger pointings add up over time)

I'll guess the camera is designed to be locked down but as a suggestion to the final editor perhaps the camera could track around SC and Trot from left to right.

Going to go back and view a few more times...

Edit: (Can't refer to frames so I'll refer to dialogue)
When Trot says "He has mysteriously disappeared" another option would be to have Trot look out or sweep her head/eyes down the hall. The internal dialogue being one of concern and wondering if he could be somewhere nearby and Trot is effectively looking for him through the walls as she imagines places he could be hidden. We don't get much of that from Trot looking at SC.

Note: You do have Trot turn her head a little earlier but it doesn't appear to linger or have her actually looking down the hall. It might be hard to move or expand that head turn if your Lipsync isn't separate from Trot's primary actions but if they are separate perhaps that could be expanded to linger on her concern a little longer?

These piddly comments aside... the sequence AS IS... is looking fine!

I was reading an article about animation and the importance of face touching. I agree that the one finger 'point' type pose is cliche so perhaps a non pointing pose hand (all fingers to lower jaw) might work better!

I don't think I've read that. Is the article available for online reading?

We do tend to touch things a lot and there are some times when it may be absolutely required. The head-in-hands in the throngs of depression for instance while seated. That however seems to be a covering and concealing gesture where the character is trying to block themselves off from their emotions being fully revealed.

The exception to the rule that is almost a rule in and of itself is when a character intentionally strikes a pose for effect.
This is personified in those age old gestures "Think, Think, Think" (Winnie the Pooh) or Rodan's famous statue personifying contemplation, 'The Thinking Man'. The end effect is still the same and suggests, "'Hey look at me', 'this is important', or 'I am thinking'".

This is were the script really comes can make a difference.
If the script if full of dialogue with character's objectifying their actions you are sure to see more of these type of gestures work their way into the animation. The first solution that comes to mind will be to objectify the character's speach. It best to avoid that.



The camera is pretty close in so your options may be limited. You may have already found the best possible pose for the current setup. As they are looking for Cap'n Bill my (secondary) thought would be to have the hands down and rotate SC and Trot at the hips as they look around. (For what its worth, my first thought would likely have been closer to what you have now)

OK, have changed things around per recommendations. I'm having some real problems with Scarecrows arms The bone orientation is kicking all over the place . I'm wondering if I have done something inserting the extra chor to cause this to happen (auot IK is a nightmare).

Update

I've uploaded the shot if someone wants to take a quick look to see what I might have done wrong.

Cheers

You are quick!

I like that better.
SC hand staying in the shot still seems unnecessary.
Perhaps his hand could start on his face and then just drop down of the screen as he looks off screen?

If you want to try this out you could stand up and talk the dialogue out.
"There seems to be some malfeasance afoot," has me looking to the side with my hands opening out, palms up moving downward. (almost an 'about to catch a ball' stance)

Not sure about your Chor problems so I'll defer to others.
An extra Chor shouldn't be causing that.

First, you should save the chor out of the project in case the project becomes corrupted. I believe there's an existing chor in the folder.

I think the arm problem can be fixed by moving Chor3 to the top of the action pile. There seems to be quite a few bones in multiple chors which could be causing a problem too. See attached. Try and keep it ASAP....as simple as possible.

Regarding the animation, I'm not liking the take. He pauses long enough not to look away. A quick glance....with lingering eyes would do it. Another problem is the curves of the head not being smooth. The head bone is keyed in the walk action and I believe you should over ride it in a chor action to keep the curves smooth. Otherwise you'll be trying to counter animate the keys. Keep it simple.

If you want something for SC to look at, we could add some armour we used in TWO. If you don't have those, I could add them.

Thanks Ken. Moving Chor 3 above Chor 2 fixed the problem. Due to all the blending, I had to use new chors to add movement before and after existing blending.

I only added Chor 3. Are all chors supposed to be saved out as external files?

Regarding the take I am not sure which part of the take you are talking about. I'll add Frame burn and repost. (I've loving having control back of his arms). Re curves etc - I've only got to the stage of putting keys and some tweens in - nothing more.

Cheers

There are a couple suits of armor in Data\Props\medievil weapony


Yes. In addition, there should be only one chor in the Project. Also, there should be only one chor uploaded to svn, named after the scene (2_14_01.cho) - unless you are setting up the project for foreground/background renders and such.

I like the glance at Trot, the pause in walking, and the speed up to Trot. Perhaps the double take is unnecessary? Not sure.
The timing of Trot grabbing SC's hand is too leisurely. It takes her about 24 frames (more or less) from the time she raises her arm until she grabs the hand. My impression is that she might either 1) raise her arm on "I cannot find captain", pause for 6 frames on "Bill", then quickly grab the hand on "Any". Or 2) raise her arm quickly on "I", pause for a few frames between the words, then quickly grab SC's hand on "can" (of cannot).
You can emphasize "anywhere" by making use of Trot's free hand/arm and shifting her Torso a little.
SC's gesture on "there seems to be some malfeasance" is much better.
Trot's pose at the very end is nice. ("I want".
Perhaps she would assume a complimentary pose (arching in the opposite direction) on "Captain". Then arching back and bending forward desperately on "Bill!".

I didn't even notice that Chor. Its not in the project so I just saved what I am using as 2_14_01a for the time being.

Re the timing - I can fix that now that I have control back over SC's arm. In the current version it was a struggle just to get the arm in position let alone worry about when it happened

New version with Frame count should be up - just use the previous link.

Cheers

When he first looks at Trot, it's enough time to register she's in distress so he wouldn't look away then. The double take is just something to do with his head (rather than have it straight forward all the time), but I think he's looking too long. Also, I'm not sure about the opening mouth when he looks back.

My "take" on it is that in his 'glance' he sees Trot, but he doesn't immediately register her distress and the take is about registering her distress.

It might be stronger if he smiles during the glance - as you might when you encounter someone you know from a distance.

Cheers

Well my take on a double take is seeing something you don't expect so quick that it causes a fast delayed reaction. It's corner of your eye stuff.....not a pause.
But yes, a brief recognition smile at Trot would make the move more acceptable. And instead of the gaping mouth "surprise", maybe a brow raise might look more dignified.

choices ... choices ...
OK, it seems that you can either keep the double take and decrease the time SC initially looks at Trot, or keep the head pause and take out the double take.
Or you could have him do a back flip instead! ... just kidding

I'm trying to block out the entire scene but have reached a camera move I do not understand. There is a 10 second long camera sweep starting halfway through SC's last line from SC's face back around to Trots face. Not sure what was actually intended here but if it was meant to be, it seems way, way too slow.....

Cheers

From what frame to what frame? I'll take a look.

373 to 706 (I haven't uploaded my latest edits yet)

Uploaded a new update.

Update

Cheers

Huh ... don't know how that very last camera keyframe got in there. Just delete it. If something in your chor doesn't make sense to you, you can always check it against these "animatics".
http://www.holmesbryant.com/files/video/sc...of_oz/animatic/. Also, if you have an idea for a great camera move/angle go ahead and try it.


That looks pretty good to me David.
SC's thumb around frame 120 looks very strange. Maybe relax it a little?
Trot's dialog "Anywhere" still falls flat. It takes her about 40 frames to go from her forward bend at "captain" (around frame 138) to an erect posture on "where" of "Anywhere" (around frame 181) .Maybe if you hold her forward bend until around frame 155, then hit the completion of the Torso rotation on "An" of "Anywhere" (somewhere around 161), that might spice it up just enough to add the needed emphasis.
You may be able to tighten up SC's action on "there seems to be" (can't read the frame numbers), by hitting his arm/hand pose on "eem" of "seems" instead of on "be". Though his torso and head action seem right. It's only his arm/hand action that seems a little mushy. Also, it may help if you bend his wrist back a little 6 frames (more or less) before he touches his face. That will loosen his wrist up a little so it doesn't look like the hand and forearm are fused together.
Around frame 314 (more or less), when SC takes his hand away from his face, you may want to bend SC's fingers in a little, then extend them back out to where they are on 321. It just adds a little flare to the movement.
His thumb on 321 looks odd. Maybe rotate it so it doesn't look like it is sticking straight up in the air?

Thanks Holmes,

I'll move into the second pass and clean up some of the keys and tweens before posting another update.

Cheers

You made the characters fun to watch, David! I liked the part when Trot emphasized "want captain Bill" by getting closer to camera. My only problem though, it seemed that Trot just popped out of nowhere when she first appeared in camera. Maybe there should be a pause first with SC and Trot both in camera before she goes on and holds SC's hand.

Have all sorts of problems with SC's fingers (probably too many keys in too many chors) so I deleted everything to do with the fingers (except the actions). So, I am revisiting the section where SC contemplates malfeasance.

Update

Cheers

I'm liking this one.... Unless my radar is off I this this part of the scene is a keeper

Update

Cheers

That's looking good David.
frame 175-179, SC's hand moves so fast it looks like it pops from one place to the next. I think maybe if you take 6 or 8 frames to get the arm from point A to Point B, instead of 4 frames, it might help.

Fixed and making a few more tweaks. Changing that timing highlighted a robotic timing to SC's movement - on the beat of each accent which felt stilted - so I've changed the zero slope interpolation back to default to keep some movement in his spine then did a couple of offsets to break things up a little. It feels better.

I am doing a final render of this camera shot just to see how the new i5 laptop performs with Win 7 64bit. 2m15s per frame at 720x405, multipass + motion blur (that seems pretty good to me). Just 1 CPU and very little RAM used. Next time I will try 4 instances of AM and see how that goes. I'll post the update when it's completed.

Cheers

Update - Final render version of above scene

Camera transitions with Motion Blur seems a little odd..... Rendering with 3 AM clients on the laptop gave a bit more than a 2.5 fold reduction in rendering time.

Cheers

That looks good David
The blurring on camera transitions is easily fixed by copying the frame either before or after the blurred frame and pasting it over the blurred frame. I wish all rendering issues were as easily fixed.

OK - nearly done. Have issues with SC's eyes which I have now fixed but not re-rendered as yet.

Update

Cheers

Well, maybe it's just a personal preference but I think I would delay Trot's holding SC's hand. I think it's happening too soon as Trot just appeared on the screen. SC's eyebrows looked kind of floaty to me after frame 380 and up. How about making variations on the speed? Nice work, David!

Good call about the eyebrows - I was getting pretty tired toward the end.....

Re Trot and the hand grab I can't see how it could be delayed. In my view the timing works with the timing in the dialogue. What do others think?

Update

Cheers

Looks fine to me. He realises she's distressed and so offers a hand in support. It all came out well after a difficult birth.

Lotta personality in that clip, David. Nice work.

I've actually worked out something rather interesting (and maybe distressing) with AM - but maybe it is just me.

The timing of the dialogue in an action is off by 1-2 frames when the dialogue action is dropped into the chor (its delayed by 1-2 frames). I thought it was just me and viewing the dialogue from a different angle but when I render out from Action and Chor I can see it - I'm positive. In any case I have dragged all my dialogue keys 2 frames left before dropping it into the scene chor and it works better.

In any case, I will call this one done unless someone can see something that needs fixing.

Files committed

Cheers

that's very very good

As for the hands: The hands touching has bothered me - but for me - it's more that SC extends his hand first - and I wonder why would he do that? I would have thought he might have responded to Trot extended her hand first - and that she would have more tried to grab onto him, indicating a state of urgency (when she says "I cannot find capt bill"). Trot's gesture when she places her hand on top of SC's is well done - but - it seems tooo polite and refined for the situation. It looks as if SC is asking her to dance. I would expect to see a more anxious, worried hand gesture from Trot.

I repeat - the sequence is very very well done. I like most of your acting choices, Trot's response at the end is especially good.

Interesting - I've had the same feeling - dialog looks good in the action, but then looks off in the chor - I thought it was me - but I never tried offsetting the action in the chor - I will have to try that someday.

I see it too, but I think it's a realtime delay due to there being more things on screen in the chor. No matter which way I move the keys, it's never right in the chor. The only way to be sure is to check the render. Or alternatively check the realtime with everything but the character hidden.

I should point out that I am comparing final renders from the dialogue action and final renders from the chor - not real time viewing in each. (I never trust real time views when it comes to dialogue)