I'm enclosing the project file along with whatever image files I used (I did the embed all and the warning informed me that image files aren't embedded along with evertthing else... bummer actually). So hopefully all the models and whatnot are in the project file. I hope, I hope.

Anyway, I'm trying to do something simple for a guy I know who runs a pretty big web comic.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/

Some of you helped me out with some problems I had with the model apartment so you will recognize it. For the most part it's right. I don't think I got the couch quite right but I'm very short on time and sacrifices must be made. LOL.

Anyway, the apartment is supposed to look like it does in this comic.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1450

The place is pretty much done but I'm really struggling with the lighting. I added one light simply because I couldn't see ANYTHING while I was adding all the little models to the apartment. I've played with it a bit and I cannot get the even light that is the norm in the comic. There are just shadows everywhere.

Anyway, as I mentioned I have very little time to finish this and I still have a lot to do so any help would be appreciated.

And if by some chance you know Jeph please don't spoil the surprise. He did something nice for me awhile back and I'm want to surprise him with a little animation for his series.

EDIT: I suppose I could have zipped all those images huh? Durrrrr. Been sitting at the comp too long the last couple days.

I downloaded the project file and despite supposedly embedding everything it asked me for the second project file. Don't ask me why. But here it is for completitude.

I also went and made a zip with the images since it looks like I missed one anyway.

It's a little confusing... you have two PRJs there...what do I actually load?

Final_Choreography3.prj?


either one asks for several missing files.

Is this anyting like what you are trying to get?

Click to view attachment

less severe shadows.

Click to view attachment


I'm not up on all the toon rendering possibilities

That's pretty much it right there. I'm glad you figured out which one to load. I originally uploaded the "Final Choreography 3" file but then I downloaded it to check and make sure everything needed was there to open the project. When I opened it it asked me for one of the several images and then it asked me for that second "Apartment11" Project.

I don't know why it asked me for that second project but it did so I included it in case anyone else thinking to help needed it.

That really looks amazing.

How did you achieve this feat oh wizard? Magicks? Magicks quite foul? I don't care, I'll risk damnation.

Even as I look at it though I still want to get rid of the shadow by the bathroom door. There are no shadows in this webcomic. He just doesn't use them so adding shadow of any kind will set the animation apart from it.

The rabbit looks comfy on the couch. LOL.

If you see anything about the model I should know please fire away. I only worked on it for a few days and may have missed.. well quite a lot actually.

Thanks, as always for your steadfast assistance.

I deleted all the lights except Key light and moved it so it's shining on the front of the couch no the back.

It has shadows ON with 15 rays for fuzziness. I'm not sure what will happen if you put the roof back on.

(I see him using shadows all over that page you linked to) (but you can reposition the light to not shadow that wall.)(or turn shadows off)



I also moved the camera so it is inside the room, not outside. I turned it so it isn't exactly perpendicular to the couch.

Toon rendering is ON in the render settings, You can see the toon settings in the camera's properties.


Click to view attachment

I can't believe how frustrating this is. I understand the necessety for complex lighting rigs but Ihave to say I'm pretty unhappy with my results so far. It seems like if I want any kind fo even light I have to use toon, which I'm not crazy about because the lines are too thick and no matter how much I change that in the settings it doesn't seem to get much better.

Then, using the normal final render gives me a look I'm much happier with but the lighting is ridiculous. I feel like I should be hiring a hollywood lighting expert just to get even light across two small rooms.

But what I really find frustrating is that I simply have no idea what I'm doing. As those of you who have looked over my lessons and projects before probably know, flying blind frustrates me more than anything else.

Robcat your image looked ok but once I loaded your project and rendered a shot myself I saw not only how thick the lines really were, but also how the lighting pretty much only worked in the direction the camera was pointed. I need to light the whole room and I tried changing the background color of the camera to more closely simulate the ceiling but no matter what I did it just doesn't look right; so I put the ceiling back on and can't get that to look right either... I changed the color of it to white but the closest I can get to the blue of the walls is a dark purple and I can't find the thing that's making it that color.

This is the third time I've dipped my toe into lighting and I have to say it is easily the most frustrating thing I have attempted in A:M. If anyone has a good lighting Tutorial I am in desperate need at this point.

Every time I add a light it gives me a bit more brightness but it's like adding a lamp with no shade. It gives really bright light in one spot but without any diffusion throughout the room. There's no evenness to the light.

Rob_T, lighting should be set up for each shot, rather than for a setting.

Three point lighting isn't really very complex and will yield good results. This episode of "Film Riot" covers the basics.

This episode of "Pigeon: Impossible" discusses a more complex lighting setup for effect that has some interesting ideas.

Most lighting is dedicated to making sure the focal point (usually a person) isn't dark, has depth and stands out from the background.

For a set like this, you might consider how it would actually be lit in real life. Are there lamps? Overhead lights? Windows?

Robert's good advice to me when I was first playing with lighting was to find a frame from a film with the lighting the way you like and see if you can divine where the lights are coming from.

Rob,
You should investigate Image Based Lighting (IBL) and Global Color for your lighting.
There are settings for controlling a general lighting throughout your scene in the Choreographies properties.
IBL is usually best served when using high dynamic range images (HDRI) to create realistic lighting but thats pretty complex (can get frustrating) so I'd save for another day. The important thing to remember here is that you can use standard images to get acceptable results.

If you prefer not to use an image you can use use a solid color via the Global Color option.
Note: When using these settings don't forget to add a few strategic lights to spotlight the most important areas in your scene.

Try it. I think you'll like it.

I should have mentioned this about toon rendering.

When line quality is a factor I seldom render to anything less than VistaVision quality (in the Render Panel's resolution setting).
For some reason resolutions less than that never seem to be of the quality/precision I want.

I suspect the reason for this is that I tend to shrink the images down later and then the lines appear too small.
Rendering to higher resolution with thicker lines and then shrinking the image works pretty well for me.

All the lighting in my pictures starts as 3-point. I then add AO and other lights if, and when, needed. Of course, I don't do much indoor lighting.

You don't need complex lighting for toon.


You're trying to imitate the look of that web strip, right? That is Toon with a capital T

He's slopped shadows all over the place even where there wouldn't be any and he's got dark black line around everything.
Here's mine with lines thickness set to 0.1 (you can even set it to 0)

You can't tell me this is too thick:

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Make sure in Tools>Options on the Rendering Tab you have "use settings from *Camera" checked




So move the light! In Hollywood they have to set up the lights for each shot. That's why it takes two months to shoot a 90 minute movie.

Lighting is a bit like modeling; there's no end to what you can do with it so there's no way to do a tut that covers it all.

Yves has a good one on his site...

http://www.ypoart.com/tutorials/lighting/index.php

... it may be a bit advanced for what you are going for. No limbs will be lost in doing it though. It doesn't cover toon lighting specifically.


Real lights have NO evenness. Their light never stops getting dimmer as it gets farther from the light.

But the human eye doesn't notice that. So CG lights have "Falloff" distance before they get dimmer to imitate human perception. Set the falloff way higher and the lights will be more even.

Hang in there Rob.
If you are frustrated thats a good sign you are about to make a breakthrough.


Note to everyone: There are some really great tips here.

And it turns out Holmes has a lighting tut also...

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=248997

Thanks for all the resources guys.

I didn't know when I was going to get a response so I put the lighting on hold and plowed ahead with other things.

I got the characters modeled and (very very simply) rigged so I have that done.

I threw them into the scene and tried to adjust the lighting again (before I came here and saw the resources... duh... but I only spent a few minutes at it so no big loss).

Here is where I am at now. They are just sitting there on the couch... sleeping I guess since winslow has no face on his screen.

As you can see I've got the ceiling lit pretty well but the rest of the scene looks like crap and the four lights I put in there are so bright in animate mode that ot looks like I'm posing on the surface of the sun. But then it renders dark like this.

Tomorrow I will be going through the resources you've left me. I'm particularly interested in what you did there Robcat. The lines look much better but I these smaller pics have fooled me one.

Thanks guys. I'm getting off now though. I'm cooked.

You know you can click on them to see them full size, right?

Yeah but they still don't look as big as the original version I get when I render. For example I downloaded your version of the project file (the first one you uploaded not this most recent one) and just rendered it without any changes and the lines looked loads thicker in that slightly larger image. And those were with the the exact settings you sent it with. Nothing changed. But I noticed a big difference.

And now I'm really going to bed. Thanks again.

Render one from the project I sent you and post it here

I've found the Film Riot site pretty informative except that I can't get the video to play all the way through. I even downloaded it and it just stops right in the middle. They appear to have some website issues.

Still, I was able to glean enough of the 3 point lighting from my 5 attempts to view the video that I'm playing around with that and adding the info from the tutorials you guys have linked me. I'm making some progress I think. Still not there yet but I'm working on it.

Robcat I loaded your thinner lines project, made sure that my options were set to use camera settings and rendered the below shot for you.

The lines are so thick they completely flatten the door frames.

One thing I noticed in both my project and yours. Once I render a toon shot it resets all the settings to default.

This took a bit for me to figure out and I was getting frustrated because I kept losing your settings. Then I figured it out.

When I choose your settings and then select "Toon" in the file render options (the very last dialog box that pops up when you hit render to file) it overrides the camera toon settings and gives you the defaults.... and it resets the camera settings back to default.

So essentially, you have to leave it on custom or you pooch the whole shot. I'll tell you this drove me right up the wall.

But once I figured it out I was able to recreate your render with the much preferred and much more suitable thinner lines.

Still working on the lighting but I'll keep you updated. The last image is where I'm at now... in toon (with Robcat's settings) and final.

Looks like I'm getting a handle on it. The combination of the 3 point lighting along with the glodal ambiance (great call on that Rodney, it really gives you a lot of fine tuning control.... or rather me a lot of fine tuning control that really influences everall color and stuff..... just great).

Here is where I'm at with Robcats Toon settings and with regular final settings. I'm torn as to which to use. I like them both. Obvioulsy the Toon looks way more like the comic but the Final really has something interesting going on with the extra dimension.



Thanks guys.

Looks great. Isn't there a way to use both of them. Like just toon lines with the final look. Or combine them in an image program?

Rob,
Go for the best of both worlds if you can't decide.

If you render the first as only Toon Lines you can composite the first images as an overlay on the second.
That'd even work for animation.

You can do this in A:M as well as in other programs dedicated to compositing.
With your comic strip the images can be layered together in no time.

One nice thing about doing keeping as much of the workflow in A:M as you can is that once you've set up the Project file you can use the same Project with other sequential images as your recurring pipeline. As changes occur to your workflow move to the altered/updated versions of the Project as required.

No programming skills required. A:M is superb at creating your own mini-utilities without writing a single line of code.
Hash Inc has precoded it for us.

NOTE: Robert's post below explains a better way to get the basic effect without resorting to compositing.

you can have toon lines with regular shading by setting the toon shading method to "Standard"

Click to view attachment

To piggyback off of Robert's suggestion you can also set the lines to show through a percentage of the underlying color if Override Lines is turned on. This can be useful if your lines are appearing too sharp.

I'll be back here when I'm ready to render. Thanks for all the great advice.

I finished the first couple shots and thought I would post them. I tried the toon lines with the regular render and I didin't care for it. I think I'm going to stick with clean and then, if I have time I render the shots in straight Toon with Robcat's settings.

Then Ill edit them both and see which one Like best. It's really hard to tell from just a couple seconds of video.

Well I'm cooked. Tomorrow is another day.

Of course it's the day I'm supposed to have this done by. But then all I can do is all I can do.

You're moving fast!

Is the camera supposed to shake in that first shot?

A little bit. I wanted it to look like those videos of people base jumping or jumping out of an airplane... where the guy who is on camera is immediately followed by the guy with the camera mounted on his head or something.

And yeah I'm moving fast but not fast enough. I wanted it completely done today so I could get back to Remedy. As it is I won't be done for at least five more days and maybe a week. bleh.

But it's coming along.

I saw that camera shake and I was like, "That looks pretty good!" I love that base jump look .

A little camera shake goes a long way IMO. Be sure it's really clear what's happening before and after the camera shake shots so the viewer has a chance to follow the action. I would like to see a long shot of the Tarzan character hanging from the "brachute". Maybe I'm slow, but I had to watch the clip several times to get that the white shape was a bra and a parachute.

Actually it's not a parachute it's attached to the ceiling. Later in the sketch there is a discussion between the two robots about how the one robot got up there with a staple gun with no fingers and how they hold anything with thier wierd limbs. It's something that has always bothered me about the comic and has never been explained... therefore new and good fodder for me.

The scene before: there is none. You are seeing the opening scene of the short. The opening credits will fade to black (the opening credits consist of the name of the webcomic and that's pretty much it to the dulcit tones of the webcomics' creators' personal band "Deathmole") and then we will hear Pintsize (that's the name of the robot wearing the leopard print G-string that he stole from him owner's girlfriends' underwear drawer) do the Tarzan yell aaaaaaaaahhhhhaaaahahhhhhaaaaaahhhhhaaaaaahhhhaaaaaaa and just about midway through it these two opening shots will run.

The reason I stopped the shot here is the next shot (and I have this all blocked out in my head I didn't even bother with a script this time) is a close up of the other robot watching him swing and then I'm giong to cut to Pintsize hitting the couch. He won't exactly stick the landing but he isn't going to do fall too spectacularly either. The comedy here is only partly physical and frankly he is so poorly rigged that controlling him is like driving a car with three wheels. You can do it if you balance it right... but it ain't easy.

There will be a discussion though, that it was in fact a bra he was swinging on and as I said, how he got it up there. So it will be clarified what he was doing, but it will be done verbally, not visually.

That said, I think it's important to keep in mind that this is a very short little animation for an already existing audience that knows exactly who Pintsize and Winslow are, and knowing what a pervert Pintsize is I doubt any of them will have trouble figuring out that it's a bra he's swinging on.

I was much more concerned that people figured out that he's wearing an upside down G-string on his chassis anyway.

Umm... Rob... it looks like I missed a memo somewhere.
This is related to Remedy.... um... how?

Just kidding!

I figure this is a TV show he watches regularly(and laughs too) when he isn't out fighting crime.

Yeah it isn't related to Remedy at all.

Jeph, the guy who does Questionable Content, has done me a favor or two to promote Remedy and I was going to see him this weekend so I wanted to get this done as a thank you. I did not. But I was able to show him some of it and he really liked what he saw.

If there had been any chance that I would have finished the Remedy short in time for this convention I would have continued working on that but it became abundantly clear that there was no chance. None that it would be done by this weekend no matter how hard I worked.

So I did this so I would have something to show.

I'll have this done the end of the week and I'll be back into Remedy by the weekend. I've actually learned quite a bit doing this little bit that I would have had to learn for Remedy so it was a really positive experience.

Today though, I'm just taking the day off. I'm whipped.

I just kind of happened across this thread, and it's been a month, so I was wondering if there's anything more to see on this. I can see you were struggling and I hope you've made some progress on the lighting among other things.

To be honest I kind of got caught up on some other things. In fact I've been neglectful of all my friends over here at Hash. I just needed a break. Still do. But I'm going to get back into it tonight.

I don't think I can properly explain how or why I felt burned out on this stuff. It wasn't ever particularly taxing. I just reached a point when I started to feel like I, every time I turned the computer on, I just didn't want to work on it. When it comes to hobbies I can (and anyone who worked with me through TAO already knows this) be extremely impatient.

One thing I've learned in life, and it's been a really bitter lesson, has been that even when you put tons of work into something, and try really hard, it can (and in my case always has) still be a major waste of time. So I try to stick to things I enjoy and allow myself to let go of the things I find taxing.

I joined the service and found myself being told what to do all the time by people I considered barely competent (and that sounds horribly arrogant but I was in the infantry and I never should have been in the infantry; there were some very smart folks in my units from time to time but they were usually as unhappy as I was; I could give examples in defense of my arrogant statement but I'd probably just be digging myself in deeper). I wasted those years and all I got out of it was some permanent injuries, a few thousand dollars for college and a cynicism that stretches beyond our nations borders. I thought, coming home a "war hero" would give me a leg up in the civilian world. The only thing I got for my time in the war was a free haircut: once. Within 2 months of getting out I was working at Radio Shack for $5.75 an hour.

I clawed my way through college, working terrible jobs, for years thinking that once I got my degree things would be better. I got into the corporate security world and found it full of corporate politics, a terrible sort of territoriality, corrupt executives and an overall malaise that I called "the velvet rut." I ended up getting fired because the company lied to a co worker and I told him the truth (we lost a major account and he went to the bosses and asked if our jobs were safe because he was about to take out a loan on the house his grandfather left him; they told him our jobs were safe, then on rounds a few weeks later I saw a memo from our supervisor on the senior VP's desk outlining the savings the company would garner by eliminating our entire shift; I was supposed to be in that office, it was part of my rounds, so was he and if he had been a better, more observant officer he would have seen it for himself; when I told him he flipped, went to them and demended the truth, he also told them who told him and they fired me the next day, I had to take them to employment court twice to get my unemployment benefits; I won both times).

I thought if maybe I got into the field of law, which I loved when I was in college things would be different. I quickly discovered that you cannot practice law by following the letter and spirit of the law. That the letter is all that matters and finding that gray area in between the letter is what almost all lawyers consider representing thier clients zealously. I detest lawyers. With the exception of a few professors and law enforcement lawyers I've never met one in private practice I could stomach. And the funny thing is that people like to blame the lawyers for all the problems but when it comes down to it its the clients who make them the way they are. A lawyer who follows all the rules and practices the law in the spirit it is written would be out of business instantly.

And that's just a few examples. So I get weary sometimes when I put tons of effort into something and don't see results. I enter an evaluation period and try and decide if I'm going to plow on or not. We only get so much time on this mudball and there are only so many things we can pour our hearts and souls into.

So I've decided to get back to work on this stuff and give it some more time, but I really needed a break from it before I could feel I could objectively decide that.

So I'm going to finish up that other Questionable Content thing I was working on in the next few days and then I'll be updating some more in here, soon.

It may sound like I'm bagging on the process but I'm not. I think the stuff all of you do with this program is absolutely amazing. I just don't really see myself ever getting to the point where I'm like Homeslice or Johnl3d or John Bigboote or Rodney or Robcat or any of the other folks whose work amazes me or I admire. Because as I've said a few times, I'm first and foremost a storyteller. All the stuff with this software is actually a tool to tell stories but it's a really complicated one. I feel the blank page and the written word calling to me a lot lately. And once I get the QC short done I'm going to get back to Remedy but I'm probably going to pace myself a bit slower and focus more on the novel I've been writing.

Anyway, that's what's going on with me. So the good news is I'm back and will be around for the foreseeable future.

Glad you're still there. Especially after all the time we've put into you.

Keep the scope of your projects small to start and I think you'll be less overwhelmed.

A college friend of mine had a similar experience with law. He quit being a music major and transferred to a State U to do pre-law. Then he went thru law school and passed the bar and got a job with a major law firm that specialized in representing entertainers which was exactly what he wanted to do.

But after a few years he was disgusted with it and quit. Now he teaches high school social studies and is very pleased with that.

Rob T,

I thank you for your thoughts, that took courage! I also thank you for you service, and the insight you found afterward. I feel for you and your situation, what you've seen and gone through. It is such a shame in this country that after serving in it's Armed Forces and getting out regardless of length of service one has to start at the bottom rung. I tinkered there for awhile with a Bill to put before congress (an amendment to the new GI bill) that would guarantee X service members the wage they had when leaving their branch of service. In a nut shell the Government would subsidize the pay so it equaled their exiting service pay regardless of where they found employment. In the end, it was just a pipe dream of someone with neither, education, power, money.
What I would like to advise you to try and though it may seem silly, but if you feel your gift so to speak is at story telling, Try writing a book, novel, short stories. Also , do you play any musical instrument? if not take up one, one that you feel would help you in your story telling, A song is a story, write lyrics, learn to play guitar, piano, whatever it takes to bring your stories to life....

I know these things (at least at first) wont necessarily put food on the table, a roof over your head or cloths on your back, but I can tell you it's possible that they can keep you "hanging in there".

I wish the very best for you, hang in there! Can't wait to read that Novel, or sing along to one of your Songs.

Mike Cossey

Patience is definitely a virtue in regards to learning this stuff. Patience and determination.

My first time out, I got all excited and burned myself out, too. I didn't come back to A:M until a year and a half later!

The big difference between my first and second time, was that I came the second time more determined and accepting the fact that it would take time to learn and build up the skills. Two and half years later, I'm still learning stuff!

...But I must say that a big part of the enjoyment I've gotten out of A:M *is* all the learning.

I can relate to this. Two years ago I put down the mouse I stated I can't do it. And to be honest I still do not know if I can do it. But I decided that i would try again and do little "baby steps". Since that time I start with one thing finish it and go to the next. When I look back I have completed a lot of items. I am not rigging or animating yet but that steps not there yet. So good luck!! Keep on trying!

Steve