Here's my first pass. It's just the poses and the timing. No actual animation yet - but don't let that stop you from commenting!

Movie file sizes for these long scenes is getting outta control and I think the big files might be discouraging some people from viewing them, so I put up a quick FLV player where I'll post my current work in progress - whatever I'm working on at the moment. If you have anything faster than a 256K connection, you can watch it in real time. If you have a 256K connection, it is almost real time. The movie stutters occasionally but it is cached in your browser, so you can just hit the "play" button again for stutter free play back.

http://www.holmesbryant.com/files/video/work_in_progress/

Looking really good, Holmes!
Why does Trot have that strange effect in her eyes? I remember that Woot also had something similar going on.

FLV is the most economical format that I have yet seen for online movies. I must start using them myself.

Nothing to suggest from me Holmes.
It looks like you've got it all there in the blocking.

I like the FLV setup as well.
Worked perfectly for me.

Blocking looks quite good - no suggestions from me -

I too like the flv - Do you have any preferences as to conversion software? or does the "any Flv player" software also do conversion from mov, avi to flv?



Most likely because they share eyeball DNA.

Good.

Quite good! One small thing ...
Frame 930 - Trot's neck is bent in an awkward angle. It looks fine in the poses before and after that, so it's probably just a quick fix in that one pose.

AnyFLV Player installs an Evaluation version of its FLV video encoder, if you want to try that. I haven't tried it.

RIVA is a free FLV encoder.
http://rivavx.com/?encoder

SUPER is a well known free video converter that handles almost any format imaginable, but its interface is a little daunting at first.
http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html

Here's the next installment. I've started animating Scarecrow. No lip sync yet.
http://www.holmesbryant.com/files/video/work_in_progress/

like what you've got thus far Holmes.

You've captured Scarecrow quite nicely.
The interaction with the cornfield... ducking under etc. work well.

Trot's look to the right before looking back in Scarecrow's direction reads a bit off.
Perhaps you were going for a double take there?
It reads as if she thought she heard something off to her right.

Yeah, I was going for some kind of double take. I want to communicate that she does not know, right off the bat, where the voice is coming from.
Got any ideas?

I think you're on the right track.

What Martin said.
Since you are targeting a double take I know you'll be able to achieve it in the refinement. I would have made some other suggestion if that wasn't the case.
Knowing you what you've got in the blocking will work well as a double take.
The eyes shutting and ease in/out of the head as Trot turns will have it looking great.

I had been been thinking about 'takes' just the other day but hadn't tested it out in A:M. I don't think we've seen too many double takes around here so I'm looking forward to seeing yours.

I'm sure there is good reference footage online and Richard Williams book has some good information on them. If Robert Holmen reads this he's sure to break out his video camera. I've seen video footage of Richard Williams performing all the various 'takes' online as well. All would be useful to frame through.

Martin summed this all up succinctly in fewer words.

You are on the right track.
Press on. Press on.

Here's the latest and greatest. Animated and lip synced.
http://www.holmesbryant.com/files/video/work_in_progress/

Looks good, and totally drew me into the story.

There needs to be at least 2 new establishing shots:
1) We need to see the apple core fly into the cornfield and bounce off of something. (We don't need to actually see Scarecrow.)
2) We need to see a medium or possibly a long shot of Scarecrow near the edge of the cornfield before the closeup.

I wonder... (more random thinking here so Watch Out!)

Would we go wrong if we just added Scarecrow into the initial establishing shot?
We want to see more of him in this movie right?
We know he is in this movie right?
We know something that Capn' Bill and Trot don't right?
How about we clue the audience in and watch.

I suppose the issue then would be why Trot would be so cruel as to throw the apple core at a scarecrow... so maybe this would work so great.

But...

Picking up from Martin's idea perhaps the apple core could strike something and then hit Scarecrow. So... hitting him would be completely accidental.

Sorry to distract but Scarecrow sure would look good in that cornfield.

I think a shot starting wide to show loacation then closing up on SC setting himself up to start practicing, then Trot and Bill walk into set, which is this shot. This shot would need no dialog and once we know SC is in cornfield we might not need a shot of SC getting hit. Try that first then maybe a quick shot of SC getting hit if that does not play right.

Just my thoughts

Holmes, I have the first bit of the next shot done and posted in my thread. Can you please download it and join them so we can see how they match?

Mark,
I think the idea is to have the time that Scarecrow has been there be undetermined.
He's probably been there for awhile.

There is an old saying about storytelling (Can't recall who said it).
'Always start your scene in progress'

There is no way we can animate better than the audiences' imagination.
Ask them a few years from now about the scene where Scarecrow sets himself up there... they are likely to remember it well.

If set up right, the audience will fill in the gaps with their imagination.

Hey Mark, I'll download your movie first chance I get. I'm doing a lot of internet stuff today, so it might be tomorrow before I can do it.

I can't quite figure out which movie you want me to use. Will you please link directly to the right post it so I'll be sure to get the right one?
I'm pretty sure you can get the URL to a particular post by clicking on the text that reads "Post #xx" in the upper right corner of each post.

Here's the latest:
http://www.holmesbryant.com/files/video/work_in_progress/

At this stage, it was difficult to modify the existing chor (except for the camera) to add the time necessary to show the apple being thrown into the cornfield, so I added another chor named 2_03_01a. We will have to splice the two renders together when we edit I guess.
I can't really do too much to the original chor without spending a lot of time reworking it, so I tried to implement your two suggestions in a way that would keep me from having to do that. At least I did my best.

Hopefully we will be able to catch these things in the blocking stage in the future.

I like the solution you came up with Holmes.
I find that reads pretty well.

The area I'd focus on if I were doing the shot might be where Trot throws the apple core. Currently she's got a mad look on her face and throws the apple with apparent intent. If it was more of a casual... I'm just tossing the apple away... that would be perfect. Maybe a lob upward more than a throwing action? When I act it out its my forearm and hand turning as it comes back toward my face. Almost like someone throwing salt over their shoulder (if you can picture that).

This idea makes me think the action of Trot's throwing of the apple core happens after they pass Scarecrow. If they had considered him at all he's forgotten already.

Point of interest. A new scene might be added into the script where Capn' Bill and Trot take specific notice of the inanimate Scarecrow. They might consider him hanging there if only through silent looks at each other. What a pitiful state to be in their faces would say. Maybe they could then shew away a few crows to reenforce that recurring theme and smile with contentment as they begin to leave. Without thinking about it Trot would then tosses the apple core over her shoulder. Then the characters would meet.

As the movie is all about Scarecrow this is an opportunity to consider.
It might be worth adding to the script.

Sidenote: There is a point where I expect you to say 'the files are there if you want to do it Rodney!' but I think you are very close here.

The establishing shot of the cornfield is good but it would probably be better if we did NOT see Scarecrow until the medium shot of him coming through the corn talking. That means the apple core needs to be seen arcing into the corn and bouncing up, accompanied by the dialog "ouch!" by Scarecrow (who we don't see).


I really need to be inside the story to catch some things. Blocking is more cerebral.

p.s. You are aware that there's a small piece of Trot's dialog that is not lip-synced, right?

One thing that bothers me is: after Trot does the double take, she ends up looking to her right. It feels like (based on SC's orientation, relative position in the following frames) that they have really walked past SC and that perhaps her double take should finish with her actually turning her torso more so that she appears to be looking behind her.

The other thing that bothers me is that Trot throws like a girl.

I am rendering out a test render now I post a link to it here tommorow. Ok in my scene I have placed the camera in the corn field so I think we should just turn off the corn in my chr which I have done either that or I am going to have to move some corn around. I committed a file to SVN in the movie folder for my scene seeing it's bigger than what we should be posting on forum.

Martin, will you please record yourself (Scarecrow) saying "Ouch" and upload it to the 2_03_01 audio folder? I'll try to do something along the lines of what you are suggesting when I get that audio.

Mark,
I downloaded your movie and the only glaring thing I can see is that in your chor, Trot is on the opposite side of Bill. In my chor, Trot must be on the side nearest the corn field so she can chuck the apple easily into the corn field. As Nancy said, Trot throws like a nine year old girl, so she can't throw very far. If you don't want to move Trot to the other side of Bill, that's OK. We'll either get creative with the camera work or we'll resolve the differences in position in the "cleanup" stage.

Might I suggest that you just drag Bill farther down the path while sc is talking you could just move the root bone and it's fixed. I have skype my name is the forum name we could talk about this. We should have talked about this before hand I guess The positions of the characters were established in Layout I just animated them from were they were.

I don't know why but this is really depressing

That's a good idea. Bill is constrained to a path, but I can increase the Ease on him and maybe adjust some camera angles so he isn't seen. Then when your scene comes up, maybe the difference in Trot's position won't be quite so apparent.

Thanks Holmes I was hoping you be willing to alter yours mine would require alot of work to alter. If you try that then join it to mine we can see how it would look

If you increse the path length so Bill walks farther down the path then turns and play with camera angel(maybe not even needed?) bill would appear to be on other side of trot from that camera angle

Mark breaths a sigh of releaf

Thank you!

OK, here's a new version. I think I understand Martin's suggestions now.
I also added Mark's video to the end so we can all see how the two flow together.
http://www.holmesbryant.com/files/video/work_in_progress/

Yes i think you/we fixed that problem quit well.

Great team work thanks Holmes!

Thanks for the idea Mark.

I had a few idle moments, and tried to load the project 2_03_01.prj from the latest SVN. There are problems loading images that are specified in the PRJ file as:

../../../../Projects/tiles/RockGrassy009_2_S.jpg
../../../../Projects/tiles/CrackedEarth0017_7_S.jpg
../../../../Projects/tiles/GravelSand0008_2_S.jpg

I think the relative path links take these references outside of the SVN tree, so these are graphics that are not in SVN. They should be added in the appropriate place and the project should be updated.

Chris

P.S. I searched through all PRJ files, and I found this issue with:
Act II\Seq02-Flight\Sc01\2_02_01.prj
Act II\Seq06-Bumpy_Man\Sc01\2_06_01.prj
Act II\Seq06-Bumpy_Man\Sc02_bumpy_song\2_06_02.prj
Act II\Seq06-Bumpy_Man\Sc03\2_06_03.prj
Act II\Seq06-Bumpy_Man\Sc03\2_06_03a.prj
Act II\Seq06-Bumpy_Man\Sc08\2_06_08.prj
Act II\Seq09-King_Krewl\Sc04\2_09_04.prj

But I think the problem is widespread in materials, models, chors, etc. There are references to: "/Projects/", "0RESOURCES", "Program Files", "Desktop", "loose_files", "TWO rigs", "TWO", "Marlin Studios", "Work in progress", and "AM Projects".

I assume that references to so_render and SO_Movie are okay.

I recognize 0RESOURCES as being one of my local folders - can you identify where (cho? material?, model? project?) that reference is coming from?

These image files shouldn't be needed. Try loading the chor file instead of the project. I don't remember why I needed to save the project (embedded objects I think), I usually just save the individual models and material when working on the sets and add to svn as needed. If the chor file loads without these images, than they're not needed.

Projects tend to save things that aren't always used. Embedded objects (models, materials, actions) always causes issues with a project of this size when these objects are used in different projects. Loading just the chor file will only bring in the objects needed. The only advantage to a project file is if there are multiple chors within the project.

Ok, I did find a reference problem with this image. I fixed it and uploaded to the SVN. The other two images I did not see load in any of the chors mentioned. And I don't remember using these images anywhere (tried them but didn't use them).

Let me know if loading the chors doesn't load whats needed.

Data\Props\Jinxland Thrones\RedBurmeseThronewithOtto.mdl

ETA: Not a problem. See mtpeak2's posts.

I'm not getting any reference to (ORESOURCES) when I load the throne model.

Sorry, Nancy, that loads fine. It appears the reference is not actually used as far as I can tell. You're okay.

As mtpeak2 said, most usages don't matter. Maybe they're just used in rendering a window to a file?

Sorry for any confusion.