As most of you know, the A:M community here has a group movie project going - "Scarecrow of Oz" (SO). In an attempt to keep the community as a whole involved, and to perhaps get higher quality work in the movie, we are going to have a "Lighting Art Contest" where the goal is make a completed SO scene "better." Hopefully, this will draw in many of you who would like to put your toe in the water of this moviemaking biz, learn something, compete on a high level with relatively little criticism, and make a better movie.

Basically, you would download the targeted sequence and get after it. I suspect most of you will stick to Lighting but who knows? In a month we'll post your finished Stills for voting and discussion. (You can show your intermediate work along the way.)

There are a couple things still needing decisions:

1) The ".zip" file is almost 30 megs. A better way would be for each of you to setup for SVN and get the data that way - then when we have the next Lighting Art Contest, everything will already be downloaded. However, some people futz around and can't seem to get SVN loaded and running (even though it's relatively easy) and it takes 4 gigs of HD space for the SO data.

2) You'll need V15. (Really, I don't even want to be having discussions with people who use this forum but can't support me keeping it running. So, if you don't have V15, just don't say anything and I won't bite your head off.)

3) You'll be downloading a whole animated sequence - I assume we'll pick a certain frame to play with?

Let's discuss it before we start anything... Any suggestions?

BTW, here's the scene we're going to be lighting:
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The Project data is attached. Go get 'er!

That looks like a nice lighting job.

I think it might be an idea to get a basic idea of how you light a shot. For example, how many lights did you use in the above image? Are shadows softened? Stuff like that.

Good chance for learning.

I would like to take a stab at it. Lighting isn't one of my strengths. It would a good challenge for me.

It would be good to have a list of any "limitations" required like... limited number of raytraced lights/shadow, rays cast, use of animated light "gobos", use of post effects (bloom?) etc. Some of us could end up with a lighting setup that looks fantastic but might cause the movie to finish rendering... in time to vote for the 46th president.

-vern

Hm... that would limitate the toolset quite much, but I understand the problem... anyway where should it stop? No Radiosity maybe...
On the other hand to create very nice advertising-renderingstills isnt a problem too...

*Fuchur*

After thinking about it - this is more community entertainment & learning than it is SO related... I guess we'll let anything go (no Photoshopping though - renderer only.) No matter what, we'll probably learn something we can apply to SO.

(I've added the ".zip" Project to the first message in this thread so you can get started.)

Downloading now!!!! [throws down gauntlet]

Gauntlet picked up. Here's my effort. I'm assuming it's daytime outside. It uses the three standard lights as well as a bounce light for the window. I also added a light to brighten up the corridor on the right hand side of the screen. The corner is still pretty dark. Not sure what to do there but it's not too noticeable. I wanted to get some volumetrics going on, but couldn't get it to work out right.

C&C welcome. It took 16 mins to render.

In how many multi pass-passes will SO be rendered? I'd like to give it a try with a light rig.

I took a quick pass at it yesterday. Didn't have time to play with it as much as I would have liked...

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Is that a Window in back of Tin? What time of day is it in this scene?

I used four passes. Anything more didn't make any noticeable difference.

Well I thought I'd give this a try.

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I added a sun light that is coming in from the back window. I also added a blue bulb with a low intensity.

It does make a difference when you use a rotating light rig. That's why I'd like to know.

My try:

Frame 0: 1 min 30 secs, 4 pass
Frame 207: about the same

both have same lighting.

1 periwinklish-blue klieg 1000% coming from behind window, z buff 1024
1 pale peachy large (800") 75% bulb in room, 1 ray shadow
50% IBL (dark forest green image)
1 level reflection
Click to view attachment
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I liked Jeetmans darker shadow areas - very nice! - so I redid frame 0 with a smaller bulb, still like Jeetmans better.

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Thank you Nancy. I love the shadows from the window effect!!! How did you achieve that? It looks great!!!!

I'm going to give this a try this weekend.
Very nice lighting tests thus far.

Guantlet eh? Time to get serious.
Common Newbies... this is your chance to strut your stuff.

Here's the settings and position of the Klieg light coming thru stained glass window. It's obvious to me that I need to play with lights in a much simpler setting, as I have no idea what many of the settings are really supposed to do, I just tweak until something changes, and it's not always consistent results.

I also find it very frustrating to play with lights that are added via an action. So I removed the light action, and added the lights (1 klieg, 1 bulb) directly to the scene.

And what were your settings for the bulb, in order to get those nice dark shadows, and nice coloring?

Oh boy! I have to learn this new lighting technique using actions.

I was sitting there scratching my head... "Where are the freaking lights in the chor? I don't see any lights ANYWHERE! Am I losing my mind?"

So, you do the lights in the chor... export... an action? A model? Then import... uh... er... <sigh> I may just do the lighting in the chor the way I'm use to for this one thing.



-vern

I like the colors on this one.

Unfortunately I can't give you the exact settings I originally used because I did that late and I shut down my computer before saving what I did. However I didn't add much. I kept the default action lights rig and added 2 lights. I recreated the lighting pretty close using these settings:

1st light type sun
Width 300
Fall-Off 770
Color default (white)
Intensity 270

2nd light type Bulb
Width 540
Fall-Off 210
Color Red 40 Green 133 Blue 236 (nice blue color)
Intensity 250

Here's the placement I did

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Here's my close repeat results

Click to view attachment


George

Thanks George. I'll have to fool with your settings. However, I was experimenting some more & I found out that using a sun light (blue) behind the window works better than a klieg, the pattern shows better - but you have to make the sun very narrow - 1". I also upped the ambient map decal on the window to 300% (from 100%), so that it wouldn't wash out.
Click to view attachment

In the meantime, somehow, The Royal Empress Tingirl decided to redecorate. She got tired of gray walls and went faux Victorian. Hanging plants and palm trees are being delivered next week. Poor Tinny. He never saw it coming.
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Way to go Nancy! Go! Go! Go!

I like your lighting where the long throne shadows casted by the window is more clearly defined instead of a soft, almost disapearing shadows. And the window pattern cast is really nice too.

Nice job Nancy! You're such an artist.

Yeah, the Tin Man really needs a good interior decorator. Oh wait! He's found one!

Ahhhh! I'm now blind. It's like the Mythbusters were in! But I quite like it and I especially like the motivation behind it (ie Tingirl).

Someone should have a volumetric sunlight coming in from the window(s)!
I would but I don't have v15

Everyones seem to look good! !!

I like the idea of reimagining the textures, as well as the lighting--maybe we should play with the camera/framing too?

That's the idea. (We've already made a movie without options & feedback... Let's give SO a chance.)

But lets get the camera angles finalized before Animatiing the scene Please

This scene has been animated.

I've started in on my lighting adventure.

What I discovered right off the bat is that I needed to deconstruct the scene in order to understand it better. This hasn't been easy because of the obvious hard work that went into the models, textures etc.

So mine will be more of a 'behind the scenes' approach to lighting.
Please feel free to learn from my mistakes!

Here is a pic of the lighting as is without most of the color/texture (still haven't found that gold in the belt).

The first thing I notice is that the light is being generated strongly from in front and above Tin Woodman. He doesn't appear to be backlit enough from the window.

As Nancy has already observed and taken advantage of the primary light is emitting from the window.

Note: What appears to be light from the hallway on the right is actually a flaw in the model.
I label it a flaw because if this scene were to have an image composited behind everything that area would allow part of the image to show through. Its a safe bet it'll cause problems for us as we continue to light the scene.

So... the primary source of light... and the flaw:

Dropping a light into the scene produces a basic fill lighting.
I haven't yet looked at the location or settings (it should be default bulb light at 0,0,0).
As no light is emitting from the floor probably best to move that a bit higher?

(Camera background color has been changed to red)

My general theory of lighting is much the same as with any project... you can never finish a scene.
There will always be something else to tweak.

With that in mind I'm looking at the flowing priorities:
1) Locate the source of lights in the scene
2) Determine the focus

With the first identified (natural light coming through the window and artificial light emitting from the lamps hanging from the ceiling (not seen) I look to the focus of the scene. If I had limited time to light this scene where should I place my attention?

Tin Woodman gets my vote so here's my intial lighting test on him:
(there is no light from the window in this render, no shadows, no in camera reflection etc.)

Oh... and the joys of A:M's native ability to render to the PNG format for use with webpages. Everyone needs to leverage the capablity to use alpha channels in their work.

Good for you Rodney ! - nice systematic approach.

I have blissfully veered off into "what if?" land ... and am just playing around .... Won't be getting anything useful out of me.

It's all Martin's fault for getting me to watch Miyazaki's "Spirited Away". He brings out the CRAP in me.

See Definition of CRAP

Thanks Nancy!
Compared to your work my approach is very boring and mechanical but its absolutely necessary for me (at least in this case) to know the rules, or at least think I know them, before wandering around too much.



Hardly! When it comes to texturing you are King... er... Queen!
The real beauty of lighting is that you can mix a lighting pass with a texture pass and change the whole scene.

One of the things I'm trying to nail down is a system for easily editing lights after they've been placed. Up until now I've just placed them and moved on. Its important that someone else that follows behind me can easily pick up where I leave off.

Thats the general theory anyway.

The process I'm experimenting with allows for quick changing of textures (low rez, high rez, different colors, alternate textures etc.). Sure wish I was a programmer.

Here is the relight thus far.
There's a long way to go but the basic elements are there.

Its interesting to note the contrast between Nancy's relight and mine.
Definite variations on the theme.

I think Nancy's lightening is much better than what I came up with... anyway: Here it is...
I didnt use the action-lightening in the file, so I deleted it and used a combination of spotlights, points and a sunlight.

The only thing I may have added others may not have been using are negative lights.
I used them under the chairs and at the topceiling-corners at the right of the image. (some pure white, others yellow)

*Fuchur*

PS: I although used one pointlight only for specularity and deactivated diffuse-lightening, etc. because I wanted a much stronger spec-highlight at the throne itself without making everything else more bright.

I've resisted using negative lights thus far.
I expect I may use one or two at the very end to darken areas that are too bright but best to wait and see. Hopefully I won't need them.

I like that contrast of blue versus yellow Fuchur.
It really makes Tin Woodman and the primary area of interest stand out.

Negative lights can be tricky, but to get more dynamic in the image (so some very dark areas while other can be very accented) they are quite useful.

*Fuchur*

Excellent!....spec only! (my brain just could not get out of a rut of always turning on diffuse...)

Nice lighting tut going on here, GREAT!

La Empressa TinGurly Gurl decided to go over the top with a Chinoiserie motif. Victoriana is just so so yesterday. This scheme might be more appropriate for Gloria's room.

I thought daylight would be better for Tinman sitting there reading, as there's only dim bulbs scattered about the room. If it's to be at night, Tinny would probably need a flashlight or torch?

All frames 4 pass, with same lighting: Global Ambiance 50% with a pale, pale yellow color, 1 klieg (pale, pale grey - pointing down from ceiling), 1 bulb (bright gold, in middle of chandelier), 1 sun (pale pale grey, coming thru window). All cast 1 ray shadows 100% dark.

Frame 0 (I changed camera)- abt 4 minutes,
207 (the bright spot is the sun hitting back wall - looks weird - would have to change sun angle)- abt 1.5 minutes,
299 and 382 took abt 3-4 minutes a piece.

I'm probably done experimenting. You can put the smelling salts away for awhile.

That's a little bit over the top alright. The whole environment is very busy and the characters are completely lost in there. Bravo for the decoration but what is needed now is a good lighting job so the castle motifs are less prominent and the characters are more visible and readable.

Nancy's current take makes me think a scattering of negative lights would do wonders to pop Tin Woodman into the spotlight and put depth into the scene.

If this were to remain a still image the lighting effect could be done pretty well in photoshop.

Great textures though Nancy.
I agree that with everything so detailed its hard to focus on any one thing.

This would indeed make a very nice decoration for Gloria's room.
Perhaps more tileable flower and vine patterns on the walls. (As if she did the decoration herself with a paint sponge or something similar. Tin Girl would probably have her Tin Minions do the decorating?)

In looking at the depth cues in the images the size of the wall murals get bigger as the walls recede into the background. I'm looking at the corner with the hallways on the right. I think the images could get smaller to give a proper sense of scale.

Edit: In thinking about Tin Castle itself... if these were tin etchings that have been carved and scraped all over the place as opposed to paintings... what a treat that'd be. It might also explain more fully Woot's amazement as he first entered the room. Stories and adventures etched in image and text into the Throne room walls with the level of detail increasing the closer you get to them and begin to read them.

Thanks for the feedback Yves & Rodney - much appreciated.

It is busy for a still (and not lit well enough to cause things to pop) - but the reality is, in this sequence, there's only tinman (and crows), and as soon as they start to move, one's eyes and attention are drawn to the movement. The viewer won't be focusing on the background unless they want to - Miyazaki gets away with very busy backgrounds - just seeing if I could get away with it. I was also trying to go for oversized imagery on the walls as well - more fantasyish.

And I was trying to go for FAST rendering, trying to avoid light lists for each character, and trying to avoid moving the lights when camera changed (hoping to eliminate consistency in lighting problems).

I was wanting to go for a cheery daylight mood, so that when the castle goes into foreclosure, it'll be a fast sale (also got potpourri simmering on the stove)....Also was trying to be over the top - trying to put some humor in the situation, & communicate that Tingurl has taken over, thrown out all his stuff, and poor Tinny realizes he just better deal with it, if he's wanting to get some ....uh...keep the peace.

However, I lied about being done experimenting. So based on your feedback - I changed the global ambiance color to almost black, reduced to 25% (equivalent of adding negative light) - upped sun to 300%, added a klieg aimed at tinman - and of course it changes mood dramatically. I don't think this mood fits with the SO feeling for this sequence. But is definitely way more MANly...and not to mention - hides all that PINK junk.(and yes it could use more tweaking)

Removed images - couldn't stand the way they looked

Wow... quick turnaround!

I think you are definitely on to something there.
Interestingly, this is the first time I noticed that little chair far off to the right (last picture).
Has it always been there?

My monitor may be displaying too darkly but your currently lighting definitely makes a difference.
Manly pershaps... but nice... none the less.

Unless there is a lot of metal in the room to reflect the light all around its probably going to be a pretty dark place? Just thinking out loud here as I'll be returning to my effort tonight.

It is too dark, it's not your monitor. The only source(s) of light are the window - MAJOR - and those dinky bulbs in chandelier, and on sides of walls, far away from the action - very dreary.

I wouldn't do it this way. I prefer the lighter, cheerier. More ambiant. The original lighting (from TWO) would probably work better. And I could change global ambiance color, % as well.

There isn't metal around - you'll have to put it there - and then of course - there go the render times (unless make reflections static).

No more tweaking from me for now.

I am determined to prove that I am certifiably something or other...This is with an added klieg pointing at TM which brings him out more ...and this time I really really mean it - no more tweaking from me...for now.

May the Froo Froo cooties stay away from your door!