I see Trot doesn't have her hat for most of the movie now. It's the first I've heard of it. I think she looks better with a hat for some reason and why wouldn't she take back her hat after they ride on it hanging from the Ork?

What do you think?

(I turned the pose back off Holmes because I thought someone had accidentally done it in the model rather than pose window. Pardon me.)

The first I noticed this was Aug 30.
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=280594

I assume Martin looked at the script and decided the hat and big bow must go. I asked him about it last week and he confirmed it.

Without the hat and bow, she does look less "cutesy" and I've never been a big fan of "cutesy" - just personal taste (there are many examples of very successful cutesy things out there. Anime, for one).

Her shirt now looks more like a pullover sweater though. I guess that's OK. Does it look alright to everyone else?

In our "life cycle," Trot's increasing maturity is reflected in her dress... Hats and bows are for young girls.

Hot dang! We got metaphors!

(I do appreciate good metaphors in a story.)

That's what meta's are for.

Agree. Especially since I was planning on animating Trot putting hat and scarf/bow back on.

No. Not really. Why is she missing the collar as well?

Trot's hair was styled to look best, cutest when worn with variation on a sailor hat.

I like cute. Little girls like cute. Mothers, who dress their little girls and buy them dvds, like cute.


Wha? Tell that to the Queen Mum.

Trot is 10 years old. She can gain maturity by the end of the movie and still have a hat (and bow too).

Trot's outfit is supposed to be a variation on classical sailor suit - complete with middy blouse, and scarf tied around her neck under her collar. Very popular with doting Mothers when dressing both the girl and boy variety. Was popular in Baum's day and continues to be popular today. Very popular currently with Japanese school girls, dirty old men and anime fans. Adored by the Boca crowd and gay men when worn by Barbara Streisand as beaded evening wear.

So what's the REAL problem with the hat & bow?

(Even the Hash's of Grayson County, Virginia liked bows, hats, middy blouses and sailor suits on their wimmin' - last photo)

I see your point Nancy. I do recognize that many people appreciate "cute".
Martin does have an interesting take on Trot's progression through the movie though. The use of metaphor does add some depth to the story. If the story is about Trot's "coming of age", I suppose there should be some indications throughout the movie that she is growing up.

So I'm ... um ... on the fence.

What if we at least keep Trot's collar? What do ya'll think about that?

hmmm... i have to say i agree with nancy here... i don´t think anyone´s gonna think "hmm, where´s her hat and her bow gone, i think she´s grown up now" rather than "hmm, where´s her hat and her bow gone???"

I prefer with the collar. What would really give her some maturity is longer arms.

Michel

And some fishnet stockings.

I prefer hat and bow and collar.

I think having deeper meaning, more themes running through the story would be great, but it would seem best to be worked into the script as dialog and acting choices, and to have it be more obvious.

To have her gain "full" maturity by losing her hat and bow, this early in the script seems far fetched. Perhaps there should be a sequence of events spread out thru the movie that convey this maturity theme. All that's left to lose to gain maturity is her skirt, belt, hair - Yes! she can do a strip tease.

Perhaps she should have her teddy bear on the boat with her, and he is drowned in the whirlpool, or he gets left behind in the cave, or is dropped on his head as the Ork flies them to the apple orchard, etc etc.

The hat can serve as a prop for Trot (just as Bill has his pipe) thruout the movie, helping in acting choices, conveying mood, adding interest throughout the movie. She can ditch the hat later on in the movie, perhaps throwing it up in the air in one of the final scenes when Gloria is made Queen

So again I ask, "WHAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM with the hat and bow?" Since there wasn't an answer, I will guess wildly at the possibilities:

1) The bow isn't rigged properly and we're all too dumb to animate it properly. Can it not be rigged, similar to the rope dangling from scarecrow's waist? but not use dynamic constraints? - 4 bones - 1 for each loop, 1 for each end.

2) the bow/collar is confusing looking - needs different coloring (maybe knot needs to look like a tie holder thingy)

3) We're all too dumb to animate the hat properly. Have to get better animators.

4) The hat doesn't look japanese anime enough. Anime doesn't like hats.

5) Hair might penetrate hat if hat is animated. Ditch using particle hair.

6) Don't want secondary props to animate as it will make the animation schedule longer, present more cleanup opportunities. If we're going for the comic book manga animatic look - then seems there will be not that many frames to cleanup.

7) It's a subjective thing. I thought I was Art Director. Musta misread that.

8) Don't care (or know) what the target audience is - only care what the target distributor wants - and they don't like hats and bows. Just want to sell this movie, don't care what it takes, and especially don't care if it doesn't fit with any volunteers personal goals.

Conclusion: Seems to me all hats and dangly bits on all characters should be eliminated. Same with all textures for anime look. All models revert back to pre-textured, and everything is back to squeaky comic book 2D anime clean.

Might seem like a bit of "reductio ad absurdum" going on up there, but so is arbitrarily ditching Trot's hat and bow just to divert from some real yet-to-be-articulated goal/issue.

Ditch the "life cycle"... Too much controversy. I simply saw Trot without the hat and bow in 2_03 and I thought she looked older. Seemed to fit the underlying theme of the story... Went with the flow... Now backflow is too much... Hat & bow are fine with me.