A lot of lip synch in this shot so I am not sure I will be able to complete it in the 2 weeks allocated. My first run through of the first line was pretty poor - the dialogue is spoken quite quickly I have the mouth chattering away

Note I am not going to have time to do the Inbetweens. I know these shots have been blocked but was anyone going to do the key poses or was the job of the in-betweeners?

Cheers

David

All that's requested is that you upload some progress *at least* every two weeks. Not that you finish it in two weeks, though that would be nice.

It looks like 2_05_02 has been through layout, but has not been blocked. Your job would be to make all the key poses and proper timing between them. The inbetweener's job would be to add the inbetweens, offsets, little extras etc.

Most of the keyframers (as opposed to inbetweeners) are using HOLD interpolation on all the key poses. I think I am the only one using paired keyframes to maintain poses until the next transition.

Oh - OK not so bad then

I like using paired keyframes too. My animation attempts have taken a bit of a hammering at the 11 second club so my confidence level is down a little.

Cheers

David

Oh, as a Keyframer, you're also responsible for the camera work.
As you know, we pride ourselves in having fun and getting things done, not so much in being "professional" animators.
Everyone pretty much blows off any overly harsh criticisms, so don't worry about getting hammered.

OK, here's the first line by Tinwoodsman. Critique as tough as you like

I watched this half a dozen times, trying to come up with a usable comment on how to make it better - couldn't.

As a general rule, this is certainly usable material. I agree that the lips are almost flapping during the fast dialog but they weren't distracting, and they were synced. I suppose you could practice flourishes of Tin Woodman's hand & body gestures but is this really the scene to do that? I'd say, "move on."

Looks good Higgins my only comment would be to make the lip movements more symetrical for continuity, as others may not use asymetrical mouth poses.....

Wow, nice. It looks like you did both the keyframes and the inbetweens. I've found that it's easy to get carried away and do more than just the key poses. Usually I try to limit that extra attention only to difficult moves - places where a less experienced animator might have a lot of trouble. But if you want to add extra stuff in the animation, please go right ahead. It looks great.

Yeh - a little bit more than the key poses but no secondary or overlaps as yet. Its taking a little while to get back into the swing of things. Is there a way to make the manipulators 'thicker'. On my system the rotation manipulator is very hard to see as the lines are so thin.

Here's the next sound bite - Pessim this time. He has a 'gruff' voice so I hope I have the attitude right?

Cheers

David

I don't know of any way to make them thicker. Maybe switching to DirectX? Sometimes I get frustrated and just click inside the rotate manipulator and "free rotate" the bone instead of trying to be precise about it ... but I understand the need to be precise at times.

It's hard to follow the lip sync in the second one. Maybe because he's moving at the same time. Playback is abit sketchy here too. I'd say just limit his lunging forward to a single definite one on a particular word....maybe "you". Don't forget to move the chest bones as well as rotate them (same for the head bones).

Also, his first head pose looks a little un-natural. It seems like it's rotated to the wrong side.

I like the body gesture in the first clip with Tinman, but I would see his mouth
more restricted in deformation, since he is made of tin, a more rigid mouth.
In the second clip, Pessim's turn to left needs more overlap, maybe lead with the eyes
then head and torso. Holding the eyes and head a little longer in the pointing direction,
possibly would give some intensity. And with Pessim maybe a more asymetrical
mouth, older people tend to have crazier mouth shapes when they speak for some reason .
Nice work!

Michel

OK - a few tweaks and a bit of clean up.......

OK - a few more tweaks

Why do you have him looking away at the end? (Does it lead into the next shot?) Suggestion only: keep him pointing accussingly up at Tin Woodman, disgust on his face.

I would suggest rotating the hips as well with just his chest bending it look unnatural.

There is a long break to his next line and I was going to use it to relax the pose into solemnity (is there such a word) as per the script. ie he has just told off Tin woodsman and now he is entering monologue mode solemnly complaining about all that surrounds him.

At the end of the line his attention will return to TW when he says "If you remain here......"

Would that be a satisfactory way to act out the scene?

He's sitting on Toad so not a lot I can do there - though I could cheat it I guess......

Just had a great critique done on me in the 11 second club - my basic animation skills are OK but my acting sucks - my acting choices seem to be limited to just gesturing - SO - please feel free to hammer me on my acting choices (or lack thereoff)

Sounds like you've thought it through.

I think he means to rotate the hips forward so he's leaning forward more. And in fact, they look a little static through the animation so maybe they could use abit of movement too.

I would move the "point" up a few frames ahead of when he says "you" and hold it there (a moving hold of course) till he says "it".......

Yes rotate the hips not translate them. video tape your self sitting on a stool and act it out it is impossible for us to rotate your chests only. It strats from the hips mostly and the chest rotates slightly after the hips. I think my acting choices are not good either so sorry I can not come up with anything better it looks good to me.

I'm not a psycologist, but I've played one on TV. Looking away after speaking is characteristic of the arrogant attitude of someone that negative. They live in their own little world, in which only they are smart enough to "see reality". They look away to help them focus on their non-real inner construct of reality. To look at Tin more would pull him out of his "comfortable discomfort zone" To me, it is totally consistent with his attitude. (He might, however, with his head turned away, try to sneak a peek back with his eyes and a minute twitch of his head, so that he might see how his "profound" statement was received.


Or not.

Myron

Hmmmm - I like the idea of the sneak peak

Since the camera won't 'see' toad I realise I have pretty much free reign over moving his hips. I just baulked at it originally as it twisted his legs out of a good seated/mount position.

Cheers

David

I looked at your 11 sec. enter and there is nothing there to be down about IMHO

The general consensus is that I can move the characters smoothly enough with appropriate arcs and weight etc but there is no acting - no character - just gesturing.

Anyway, here is the next instalment. I'm not happy with the timing of the second part - just a bit too floaty and I think the lip synch needs to be stronger on the B in 'ought to Be'. It looks just a little too slurred.

Cheers

David

A bit to floaty yes but pretty good I'd say. You need some holds. On the point when he says "you" hold a few frames. When he looks away then glances back more eye movement and less head movement with a short hold....

Are you also woking on Sept. 11second club?

Yep - just uploaded a still for this months dialogue to that forum.

Cheers

David

Nice animating!
Right after "That's all you know about it", there is a very awkward couple of seconds where there is no dialog and nothing really happens. Is there any way you can move "The trees are altogether ..." closer to the previous dialog? Or maybe pan the camera across the trees? Or maybe show Tin Man's reaction? Or .... something?

I had planned on something like a softening in his attitude but his voice is such that you can't really tell. The dialogue is just one piece of audio so it would have to be split out but a short landscape pan would work just as well I think.

Cheers

David

Take the following for what it'll be worth...
Keyframing/Script/Direction might constrain you to keep things largely the way they are now.

I played back your current WIP several times without really having anything stand out yet felt something was wrong.
Viewed a few more times... still nothing.
Closed my eyes and listened to the dialogue a few times through. Nothing.
Watched again.
A nibble.

You said:


I agree with the general consensus.

I suspect its common in short pieces of animation to have a character demonstrate the dialog but for the character to truly think and act there must be something more. Bear with me here as I try to explain what I'm thinking...

In the WIP:

"That's all you know about it." (The obvious emphasis would be to point at the person he's indicating)
"The trees are altogether too green" (The obvious emphasis would be to point at the trees)
"and the rocks are harder than they ought to be." (The obvious emphasis would be to point to the rocks)

In order to get into the character and have him 'think' you must break away from the obvious.
Definitely not easy.

I'm not saying you have to break away in all three instances (I like the last point... the rock the best out of the three).
I think there is some space for Pessim to act and think here though.

For the first instance you might have him turn completely away or fold his arms and hands. Perhaps look back over his shoulder a little?
He'd might still be pointing on the word YOU but with perhaps glaring eyes to make the emphasis instead of his hands? His arms and hands would still be indicating his inner thoughts which is closed off, difficult to access... impossible to understand.

In the second instance perhaps he begins to whirl around to face his audience but then turns back again.
While he turns his attention to the trees perhaps both arms might go out (the first on trees and the second on green both in opposite directions) with Pessim now having lost all attention in his audience?

Finally, this gives Pessim a chance to finish his dialogue talking about the hardness of rocks.

What is his focus? What is he thinking about?


All this just words from me... thinking and enjoying the process.
You are doing just fine David. Keep on keeping on!

Hmmmmm...... Yes - just gesturing again........'overacting' and cliche.......

So he needs to tone down and place his movements in the context of the entire piece. (I think I have been so used to doing short pieces I am animating each part in its own right). This acting lark is tough

OK - I'll do some more thinking.

I also noted that Pessims face rig has a few issues.

1. The lips do not close fully so B's look like V's.
2. The Lips Upper Up/Down actually move the upper teeth and gums rather than the lips
3. The lower lips up just turn the lower lips in/out rather than up.
4. The Upper lips down just turn the upper lips in/out rather than down.

It just means I can't make the lip shapes I am expecting and is, perhaps the reason the lip synch is a little wishy/washy. Do you want me to have a hack at 'fixing' it? (I assume I only need to adjust the CP positions for the individual pose sliders)

Cheers

David

While I'm contemplating Pessim acting choices I thought I'd do the next line for Tinman....

Cheers

2nd character....The eye movements are not anticipatory. There is no sound in the file.

The tin man could benefit from a tongue movement for use in making N sound.

That's all folks.

Michael Angelo

Are you sure you have the latest Pessim version? I'm not seeing those things here.

Hmmm.... My version is almost 2 weeks old (I consolidated the project so I could move it around on a USB stick between home and work).

Well I just did and update and this is what I get....

Playing with the raw model and the mouth closes just fine (though it would have been better if the 100% pose took it well past closed like Tinman) so there appears to be an issue somewhere else.......



Cheers

David

Maybe you've used those nulls in another action and they're "adding" together?

Love your facial animation David.

It's interesting to me that each of us has our own "thing" we focus on and excel at. For some, its a great speed/quality ratio, for some its great acting, for some its technical animation quality, or camera work or great texturing or rigging prowess or producing or whatever. I love cooperative projects.

They would only add together if I use Hold last pose on the action wouldn't they? (And I haven't used the face in any chor actions). I might scrub him alltogether and start over.

I have sound on all the downloaded files! Tinman has tongue movement on all the appropriate sounds. Which one did I miss? I can't see it. Is it the 'N' in 'and' on 2_05)2c? I might have keyed it too late.

Re eye movements - what is the general consensus. I have been animating their movement in the action but it makes timing in the chor very difficult. Can we key the eye movements in the Chor instead?

PS - Am I taking too long with this scene?

Cheers

Absolutely! (I don't think even Martin has a problem with that one. )

Oh - good. I'll have to redo those then Here's the next line from TM (I'm avoiding Pessim for the moment until I can get a feel for how he might act).

Cheers

And the next one (not much more than dialogue and key poses here)

Cheers

Fantastic. Move on to the next bit

Note sure if this is an improvement or not - but there is a lot less gesturing....... The first 2 lines of Pessims dialogue again.

Cheers

I have identified why I can't close Pessims mouth properly. There appears to be a problem with the Synch null in FACE. Every time I use it, it adds a bit to the mouth open. In fact I 'pumped' its extreme up down movement a few times and now Pessims jaw is locked open very, very wide and deleting the nulls keys doesn't fix it. Anyone know how I can fix it? I don't want to have to redo all the lip synch work I have completed to date.

Cheers

At first look I imagined the earlier take (with more gesturing) might play better but... I like this last one a lot. The movement seems to fit Pessim and you've got some nice touches (like the breathing/shrug) there too.

If you contrast/compare your Tin Woodman shot with this one of Pessim keep in mind that a character doesn't always have to be moving and looking and pointing all over the place. Give them something to focus on... as if you are looking through their eyes with their intent. Lead and convey thought with the eyes more than via movement of the head. With Pessim's character we might expect to see more movement of his head. TW on the other hand is more stable, in control and focused. Their movement can convey this.

What is the saying... 'animate the eyes... then (if necessary) the head'.

I'm not sure if Pessim is holding any reigns here but that'd give his hands something to do while talking. When faced with trying to have a character do something with their hands... consider available props.

I'm not sure about the Sync Null... Hopefully Mark or David are looking in.

Looking forward to seeing these shots cut together!

I haven't messed with any of the SO characters, but that behavior sounds like the "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Lower Face Poses/Jaw - Tongue controls/MouthOpen" is able to be set to "0". In the model's "Properties", right mouse click on that Pose, select "Settings" and make sure that the "Default" and "Minimum" are set to "0.01". Having the Pose go to "0" is the same as "off", so the positions would get baked...if that is what's happening here.

Hope that helps, David.

Can you post an image and exactly what you're doing. His mouth closes fine for me.

Hmmmm...... It's working fine today! Maybe its a combination of things?

Cheers

David