Greetings,

Other than simple Flash transitions, I've never worked in animation; I'm just a web designer interested in learning. I've tested several reasonably priced cartoon animation apps over the last few days, but the Animation:Master movies I viewed were better than most, so I purchased the web subscription. I've had some stability issues with A:M 15.0d, is this a final release, or a beta? I was a little put off by the Win98 style installer - and the GUI itself - with those old jagged software icons. But then I remembered I only paid $49 ;-) Besides, many of the animations made with A:M are incredible!!

Is this version of A:M Vista ready? It has hung on me several times while I was working through the tutorials. On two occasions, I received an error while saving the project that stated I had to embed the stage because it was from an older version. A:M is installed on my design machine, I use it everyday for work. Very stable machine and OS.

My computing environment is:
Windows Vista Business SP1 32Bit (All recent drivers and updates)
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 4600+ CPU
3GB PC2-6400 DDR2 SDRAM
ATI Radeon X1300 256MB
WD HD 250GB
Dell UltraSharp 1907FP LCD Monitor

Regarding A:M's UI, have you heard of the Tango Project? (http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Desktop_Project) While it states on their website that their icons are for free and open source projects, I know of at least one paid web app that uses them. Just an FYI.

Thanks.

Yep, AM works fine for me on Vista Premium 64 bit anyway.

I wouldn't consider that an error. It's a warning that the model was made with an older version and so saving over it might cause it not to work with the older version of AM (personally I'd like to disable that warning). So, it's just a matter of either embedding the model into the project or saving it out again. Embed is in the model properties and you can save the model by right clicking on it.

Looking forward to seeing your work!

PS I don't think those icons would work as the program has to be open source. Also, it would be un-likely to have the icons AM uses. Nice icons though.

A:M was once better looking with new style buttons and so on, but it wasnt translateable to the Mac-version and so they decided to go back to the old style.
You can change them with some software (go to google and serach for "icon replacement exe", but I wouldnt recommend doing it.
Have a look at Avid-Products and you will be very happy with the look of A:M...

Turn off Aero, Desktop-Composition and such things for A:M and it should work well... you can turn these things of for the application only, but I highly recommend to do it for everything. These features will just take away performance.

Just to mention it: Vista is in most tests (not only connected to Animation:Master but most software) about 30% slower than WinXP. So many geeks stay with XP (many with 64 bit to access more than 3 GB of RAM).

I'd highly prefer to get this warning... It reminds you to be careful with it and to embed it, dont overwrite it if you are not totally sure and so on.
Please keep these warnings. They are very useful if something happens and you dont know why, it is ALWAYS less good.

*Fuchur*

One of the 'beautiful things' about this software is that it (they) have not bowed to the pressures of 'modernizing' the UI... I think they tried it back on V9 (2002?) with disastrous results.

We LIKE things the way they are... we don't need new tango icons. The interface is very manageable and customizable...we recently had a discussion where everyone (well, a LOT of us...) took screengrabs of our A:M configuration and we learned that WE ALL DO IT A DIFFERENT WAY!

You want a clunky interface? Try Caligari or Blender. You want a designy interface that looks like it was made by aliens for aliens? Try Maya or Houdini or Max.

WELCOME to our house, please do not try to rearrange the furniture your first day.

Just to repeat what everyone's said, don't worry too much about the UI. One of the nice things about A:M compared to other apps I've worked with is that the interface is clean and not intimidating, however you need to learn where everything's hiding!

The community's great, the app is constantly getting upgrades and features, and it's just more fun than 3DS or Maya. But 3D in general has a pretty steep learning curve as I'm sure you know. Also I would strongly advise that you Embed All (Project>Embed All), because that will come back to bite ya if you don't.

And post all your questions. There are no dumb questions here, though I try to give dumb answers when possible!

Fuchur,

Speaking of geeks, I began with DOS and worked my way through all versions of Windows (except Win ME). I have a couple of Linux boxes, and even an iMac. I prefer Vista for my workhorse. Granted that I had to disable much of Vista's bloat, it now outperforms XP. My design machine is a dual boot system with Vista Business and XP Pro. When I boot into XP I see a considerable performance slowdown. I don't think performance is my problem. I love Aero Glass!! How geek is that? ;-)

John Bigboote,

My apologies if I have offended anyone. I'm a web/graphic designer by trade, so I'm used to the modern UI of Adobe's products - and about a dozen others. Can you help me to understand how a modern interface detracts from functionality & customization? How does modern UI design translate to clunky?

As far as the layout and functionality of A:M, I think it is superior to many of the more popular 3D apps I've tested. Within a short period of time, I was animating characters on a stage. Cool!!

Gerry,

I can live with the UI, it just made me wonder if I had downloaded a beta version or something. No worries, I will push forward.

Thanks

Shock horror! You actually like pretty interfaces!

Go figure!

Would be glad to see some benchmarks for that. Even the required systemsettings are so much higher, that I highly doubt that for most things. It is available as 64bit, so you can access more RAM, but you can do that by Win Xp 64bit too. I used Vista on a laptop and it was loading longer, it was very very slow and when it finally loaded everything felt bad.

I am quite sure that, if you can use XP on the same machine for your needs, XP is faster.
I am although sure, that this will change, but till now nearly every benchmark is faster or higher performed by XP.
Tom's Hardware had a nice test on that:
Benchmarks at Tom's Hardware

It is however less bad than I thought it would be... only at Videoencoding and 3d-software (for example Maya and 3ds) WinVista was sigificantly slower than XP (up to 90%). But lets face it: That is what we are after here.

Linux looks better than WinXP and it doesnt need anything near vistas hardware to run smooth. So when Vista would have been built like that, it would have been great...

*Fuchur*

I've been in control of my computing environment since 1996. As any computer enthusiast does, I disable anything that gets in the way of performance. For Vista, this meant disabling UAC, Defender, a multitude of unnecessary background services, uninstalling Norton altogether, taking control of what loads at startup, etc., etc. The only thing I can come up with for Vista outperforming XP on my machine, is Vista's Superfetch.

The Tom's Hardware article came out 20 months ago, long before MS provided speed enhanced updates and such. But there again, I don't know if the source of these types of benchmarks follow my habit of disabling the OS bloat. For all I know, they use the OS right out of the box. I don't have the patience for that.

That isn't relevant... First there was XP on the same machine, than we formated the harddrive and installed Vista and than we formated again and installed XP again
So the same hardware had to handle the different OSes...

*Fuchur*

Sorry, I caught that a few minutes ago and removed it from my post before you sent this. I agree with you on that point, but I have no way of knowing what steps you took to increase OS performance. I have a Dell Precision laptop also running Vista, and although it loads much slower than the desktop, it still performs well for the hardware.

All that aside, I am really looking forward to learning A:M. I believe I've made a very good choice for animation.

Thanks.

Welcome AMSpecter. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Please try to be as specific as possible though. Screenshots also help sometimes when words fail.

AMSpector,

As an techno weenie myself, it sounds as though you have Vista pretty well figured out. Aero is fun and purdy, but it sucks the life out of a machine. I'll stick with my stripped down XP for now...

As to your XP running slower on the same hardware, I'd venture to say it was an older install... Also, if you have it in the same partition as Vista, then there is your first XP bottleneck. Vista overlays a bit of itself in front of XP and it will seem slower not to mention if you have registry bloat, etc. This happens over time and the only way I know how to combat it is to have a fresh install, image the drive and when it gets noticeably slow... you just re-image the drive back to the fresh setup. And, yes, I know it's a PITA... but I also know it works.

As to the old GUI... Hash, Inc. has been kind enough to put their small family sized company energy into features, performance and stability as well as squashing bugs in their software. I've never seen a company fight small somewhat meaningless bugs (to some companies) so hard. Remember too, that Hash, Inc. is a family sized company with a handful of developers, so for $49 a year, you'd be wise to ignore the 'pixelated' icons.

I realize that we all like the purdy... but as a buddy of mine once asked me when I had my first car that looked like crap and ran like a top... "Which do you want... show or go?"

The limits of A:M are only your creativity, time, sweat and organizational skills... as we found out all too well on the TWO project.

Good luck and post some WIPs if you feel so inclined... we would love to see what you are doing with the software.

Cheers!

Consider it done!

As for XP running slower (on a separate partition), it's simply a matter of OS design. After a year or so (sooner than that for me) of installing application after application (149), over 500MB of fonts, hundreds of folders storing an ever expanding collection of files, XP slows down. Vista handles data differently; it is proactive and learns how I use my computer to make sure that the things I need are ready for me when I need them. See here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-v...d=1&catid=3

I've been using Vista for business since its release, and it has only gotten faster. However, not without sacrificing some of what I consider bloat. On top of what I've already listed, I eventually decided to disable Indexing and Auto-Defragging. While Microsoft calls these "Low-priority I/O", they would start up at inopportune times... like when I'm busy. At any given time during the day, I am subject to be running 9 or more resource intensive applications at the same time, including multiple instances if Firefox & IE. Where XP struggles with switching between these, Vista powers through them. I say struggles lightly... I'm just impatient when I'm busy.
I also disabled Security Center. Zone Alarm, AntiVir and Spybot are all the security I need.

I don't see a performance hit from Aero, but that's probably because I've never turned it off, so I have no comparison... LOL

Thanks for the advice.

Didn't mean it that way. All I was trying to point out, was IF Hash were to 'glitz-up' it's UI so that it looked like the modern image/animation creation workhorse that it is, there would be good and bad results:

GOOD:
A fresh, modern new look.
More sales from people who 'buy into glitz'. ( Our Mac userbase would increase!)

BAD:
Established userbase would need to re-orient themselves with new UI...
Established userbase would highly critique new UI...(Your not the only 'pinkies-up' designer in this crowd...)
Potential 'fallout' of established userbase.
Programmer time spent on non-feature related programming, and additional expense.
Potential 'bug' creation.

The best option I can see is the following:
Currently, the icons etc. are saved embedded in the master.exe-file.
If these icon-files would be saved externally, for example in a folder called "icons" in the hash-installationfolder,
it would be very easy to edit these icons and people could make their own interface.
I'd like that possibility... and I dont think it is much work to do that, when the application is programmed in a good way, what I consider it is.

There is one drawback for that: If you make a screenshot, some people may have trouble to follow you, because of the different looking icons on both systems.

A good way to handle that would be to let for example a group of users make new icons, etc. and if it is popular enough, Hash could implement a switch (for example in the installation-file or in the software itself) to change the icons.

That would be the icons, but there are other things (for example blending-effects, window-appereances and so on) which would need some further investigation so. There are some tools to produce own skins for Windows XP which can change such things too, so maybe it isnt that hard...

To be able to create new interfaces by yourself would be a great thing. I like the idea.
Anyway there may be much more connected (depending on the way the software was programmed) to this, so I cant say much about it.

Hash would have to decided, if such a thing is worth the hours or not.
*Fuchur*

I seem to remember a discussion about this in the past... people wanted to be able to have their OWN animation play in the render dialogue. I think Martin's reaction was something along the lines of 'write your own 3D animation program if you want it badly enough...'

In summary... Hash Inc. is now an entirely virtual company...there is no 'headquarters' in Vancouver Wash anymore. As far as I can tell, there are 2 programmers working on bug fixes, mostly part time and weekends, Martin would rather make movies than program, and who can blame him? The software is where it needs to be, highly workable-stable and sellable with a great price-point... most of the 'advanced' features (AO-SSS-Hair-Cloth-Liquids-Newton-A:MComposite) are barely used IF at all by most users- so sitting around dreaming-up stuff for the programmers to do is fruitless.

Traditionally, interface design evolves with the application: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/apps/photoshop/

But I see your point.

I think that says it all.

If I can even come close to some of the great work done with A:M, I'll be happy.

I'd be happy to offer my services, free of charge of course.

<opinion on>

An immediate goal of the A:M Community at large is to use A:M as it is.
A secondary goal is to get more of the A:M Community using A:M as it is.
New interfaces and such work against these goals.

The idea to make things better is a good one. Kudos to you all.
But trying to change A:M is going to lead to frustration for a lot of users both old and new.
Consider for instance that new interfaces would require a rewrite of the manual and tech references too.

Projects are easy to talk about but easy to implement or complete.
Change tends to break things too.

New interfaces are like that too.
Build it first. Demonstrate how it'll work.
Then see if it floats.

Example?
There use to be an annual push by users to update the Hash Inc website.
There is nothing that prevents a user from building that site on their own to show how it would look and work.

A lot of people wanted to see a new website but few were willing to commit to the work.

I think the point Matt (John Bigboote) was making is that the timing isn't right.
Keeping the user interface as is is better for everyone at the moment.

Seeking Hash Inc involvement in the effort beyond what is already available (SDK etc) is not a great idea. A:M is not open source and the resources to commit to such overhauls simply aren't there. And this doesn't even take into account the level of satisfication most people already have with the current interface. Piss them off or confuse them (Hey where's my old icons!!!) and they'll leave and go elsewhere. Program a new switch to toggle on/off? Who's going to do that again? Can you port that to Mac as well?

A:M is what it is through years of effort by very talented and dedicated programmers.
If all you desire is to change A:M's icons... there are programs that can do that easily. If you are talented enough to reprogram A:M already you know where to find them.

As has been stated, 'interface design evolves with the application'.
It been said that evolution takes time.
You will find great satisfaction in effort spent animating characters and creating movies with A:M but I don't think you'll find much satisfaction in chasing changes to A:M's interface at this time.

By all means don't let this discourage... new ideas are cool.
Just don't expect those ideas to be implemented anytime soon.
You can always demonstrate what a new interface might look like.

I believe an "inspirational polish" was only suggested. Not a total re-design. So, the symbols would be unchanged.



That's decent of you.

I'll get back to you on this - with an "inspirational polish".

You almost sound happy with that... a software needs to be enveloped to stay on the top. Till now the featureset is okay, but sooner or later other software will be able to do so much more, that A:M wont be sold anymore, which will decrease the interest in A:M and will make cool communityprojects like TWO and SO impossible... I think however that a year to make the software more solid and to create a movie or two with it is a good strategy. I hope after that the developing goes on.



And lets face it: AO is very often used. Newton and SSS are mentioned in the forums nearly every day to at least every week because people are interested in it and are using it too.

New features make the software and even more important the animations produced with it sellable. And yes, not every new feature will be used by the beginners. That's normal. But new features become "old" once. And even the new once are used. It is like with the statement about the brain: "Only 30% of a brain is used." - This is just not true. It needs to be said like that: "Only 30% of the brain is used at the same time." Different users use different features. None uses all of them because rendertimes would rise drasticly and it is not always needed to use all of them for all the animations... hair is just not needed if you want to create a realistic car and if you got a room and a character in it acting you may not need liquids... that doesnt make a feature useless, it is just not need at any circumstances. But the next time you need to animate a falling bottle of water, a waterfall or whatever you will need it again.

A:M is a very cool software. I'd be happy if it stays that way.

See you
*Fuchur*

Are you people talking about changing the icons in the interface?

They don't show up in your animations, don't spend time on that.

Are you talking about changing the way the interface works?

It's already powerful and efficient. You'd have to come up with a VERY convincing demonstration of how the change would make things better for everyone, not merely different or more like some other program that produces the same end result.

And Hash can't spend time on re-inventing something that already works.

I see it like you robcat... the interface is okay and the workflow is very well thought.
It could be an advertising-helper if it looks better, but only if it is only a small amount of time which would have to be spend on it for hash.
A:Ms Interface is looking quite well compared to some of the competitors around.

*Fuchur*

Click to view attachment

So should I give it a rest and stick to learning the software, or keep going?

FYI, only the graphics change, not the functionality or layout of the GUI.

If we're voting on this, I vote for LEARNING THE SOFTWARE! I mean, why else are you here?

Nicely done icons! But yes, I think your time would be better spent learning the software.......not that your work isn't appreciated. As was said elsewhere, it's been done before.

Considering it was my original post that brought all this on, I figured I owed to the rest of you to at least follow through and show some commitment. No worries, I'm happy to put this topic to rest and focus on learning the software.

I was working through a tutorial last night actually, and was again amazed at how powerful A:M is. I'm sure it will take me the better part of a year just to determine if I have a talent for animation, let alone to create something worthwhile. Looking forward to the challenge.

Thanks.

I predict you'll go far.

I have no doubt you have the talent and I'm confident it won't take you a year to find out.
No matter how long... take the time to enjoy the journey.

For the shortest route to success I recommend working through TaoA:M. I've yet to meet an A:M User that didn't benefit from the experience.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Rodney, and the link to TaoA:M