I thought I was about done with this when I realized that according to the script Cap'n Bill and Trot are using Trot's hat to ride on like a swing. (I guess that is why the chor had them sitting on Trot's hat.) That would have been OK had I not had Trot holding the hat on her head so that it did not fly off throughout the sequence. It looked good except for the fact that she should not be wearing a hat. And this brings me to where I am.

So now I have created a pose to hide Trot's hat. I was not sure how to hide parts of a model in the pose so I just scaled the hat to zero. If there is a better way to do this let me know. Also that brings up another issue. See the attached image to see what Trot looks like without her hat.

Steve

Trot has hair - under her hat (have to turn it on to see) -

For this image I constrained the hat bone to a null (translate, orient like) as well as scale like the null - you can then move the hat away or in view - and it won't respond to her head

Thanks for the info, Nancy; you are invaluable. I will use the hat on her head and delete the individual hat from the project.

Hmmmm...I just noticed that there is a separate hat model on the svn (put there by Ken) - I also noticed it isn't textured correctly and is deformed, and not boned. I was not aware of the separate hat model (I just maintain my local copy of database with only models, data that I actually need).

I am not familiar with your particular scene and what is supposed to be happening in it - but at one time, I believe - in the script - somehow they (Trot? Bill? Ork?) were supposed to take Trot's bow ribbon and attach it to the hat and the Ork was to carry them "swinging" in the hat - and I'm guessing, carry the hat via the ribbon, in his feet? Is this what's happening in your scene?

I'm wondering if Ken was intending on finishing this separate hat model...ie, put a bow ribbon "handle" on it - and if so, probably would be better to use a separate hat model - and to just hide the hat on the Trot model in your chor, using the null trick, to move the hat off camera.

I hope he doesn't put the bow on the hat - as that means would have to hide the bow on Trot - would be better to "pretend" that the hat has a built in "chin strap" that Trot doesn't use - or they used a stray piece of seaweed for the ribbon substitute ...

This probably requires more clarification from somewhere other than me.

EDIT: added image - couldn't resist - Is it any wonder I'm not being given animation assignments?

Not sure what is happening in my scene. Gives one confidence, eh? I just assumed that the hat that is being used as a swing was just a proxy for now and that it would be magically cleaned up later.

I don't think it will be a giant hat. The hat will be the seat of the swing and the scarf will be the ropes.

I'm just back but I think that's just a proxy hat. Someone feel free to copy Trots actual hat and put it in the individual hat model. Yes, I was intending on hiding the hat in the trot model and having them sit on the hat model (see the animatic on how).

Don't they use Trot's scarf as the "ropes"? The scarf needs an on/off pose. It's really only on her for a couple sequences.

Yep. Anything long will do....scarf or ribbon.

I made 2 poses for trot - 1 to hide hat, 1 to hide bow in wet look folder - I assume we are talking about the same thing when you say scarf and I say bow? - I dun no nuthin about no scarf - uploaded trot model to svn.

I will see what I can do with separate hat model - not sure how bow gets on hat...

I call it a "scarf," you call it a "bow," Ken calls it a "ribbon" - what the heck is that thing?

It's a ribbon scarf tied into a bow.

I added the scarf / bow into this scene, and am working out how to constrain it, etc. - haven't started InBetweening yet. Trot & Bill are on Trot's hat swinging by the scarf from Ork's claws. I've just rendered the 1st 20 seconds so you can see what I'm doing (the 2nd render is the same with stuff turned off to see it clearer). Now the scarf's constrained to Ork's claws and also the ends to the hat. As you can see, in addition to getting it to look like the scarf is behaving right - swinging with tension, etc. - some other issues arose like:

1. getting Trot & Bill's hands on the scarf - bending Trot's arm back far enough would be uncomfortable for her, so maybe I bend the scarf forward, or rotate her whole body?
2. They are swinging forward from Ork, seems like they should swing back, lagging him?
3. Maybe the hat should rotate up as it swings? 4. Bill's coat tails poke through.
5. I've just poked the ends of the scarf throught the brim of the hat - is that good enough, or does it need to look tied?
6. It looks shakier than when I started, could that be an effect from adding too many constraints, or something else?
Should I start a new thread at this point?

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I am enjoying this as getting that scarf where I want it is like working a puzzle.

That's a challenging shot. You can keep Trot's hands on the ropes by turning on IK arms and constraining the IK nulls to a bone in the rope.

Since the Ork is supposed to fly pretty fast, maybe they should be swaying more behind the ork than in front of it? The angle of the hat and ropes makes it look kinda like they are flying backward.

I think the Ork uses his tail to fly. And then his wings are for navigation. His tail spins fast.....there may be a tail spin in his actions folder.

Yes, they definitely need to lag behind the Ork abit. Not too much or the camera will have to be rotated to see them. If Trots hand doesn't reach the scarf, maybe moving both characters back would fix it. If not still, just have her hold on to Bills hands/arms.

For the tails of Bills coat, just use the bones to rotate them between him and the hat.

Also, it looks like you have keyframes on two successive frames as there's some snapping going on near the end. But over all, it's a good first effort.

You are pulling this sequence off quite nicely.
I was having a hard time seeing how this one was going to be pulled off.

Addressing the areas already mentioned and passing off a good sense of weight will take this sequence to the next level.

I got started again this week, just where I left off, positioning the models after adding that scarf prop before the holidays. Not much to show, just getting the hands & claws on the swinging scarf in the first couple keyframes:

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Looks good so far. I think the Orc has a new pose or something for its tail. If I remember correctly, the propeller tail moves up to a position resembling a helicopter when the orc is in flight. Also, the orc has tiny little wings, so it seems to me they would be beating much much faster, almost a blur.

Its nice to see you back

OK - just added the same actions for flight position and tail rotation from Nancy's scene which comes after this, 2_2_05.

When I started on this scene Bill was constrained to Ork's feet, Trot & the hat to Bill, but no scarf, so when adding the scarf I constrained it to Ork's feet and the hat, and tried constraining the hands to the scarf. This was overconstrained and gave me difficulty, so now I deleted all the constraints and made new ones, first constraining the scarf to Ork's feet, then the hat to the scarf, Bill to the hat, Trot to Bill.

There's still a lot of interference to work out, and the hands aren't staying on the scarf now, but I want to try that without constraints.

I scaled the scarf; should I save it with a different name or what?

The file's so big, I only rendered the first half here to show how it's coming along:

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I wander what is causing the jertery motion of Bill and Trot? Trot asks Mr. Ork if he sees any land and he says not yet but what are all those things below that look like island? If you turn off the back ground stuff maybe te file sizes will be smaller?

At first I wondered if that was from all the constraints, maybe conflicting or something, but those are redone and it's still jittery. This scene will need a thorough going over, when I get time again, to find the cause, as well as fix the other issues like the islands.

Thanks for the tip. I wasn't sure how the constraints I added would combine with Steve's keyframes and other constraints; it was jittering ever since I added the scarf. After redoing all the constraints, yesterday I tried deleting various combinations of constraints and keyframes and rendering a few seconds to check (without saving, of course), but still hadn't narrowed it down.

For the render below I've deleted all of Trot's keyframes in the chor and all her constraints (didn't save it, of course), so she should just float there, but it appears to me she still jitters, as well as Bill. Could something from a lip-sync action agitate them? Anyway maybe I missed something so I'll keep trying this process of elimination, that's probably a good way for me to learn something.

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Hmmm...when I look at your chor on the svn I notice that the position of the island set is at a weird location: Perhaps the computation for the FOV is really what's jittering? The set seems to be positioned weirdly in the chor following yours, but not in the preceding chor.

The other weirdness I notice is that in the chor preceding yours - they are talking about using Trot's skirt as a swing (not the scarf & hat combo). At one time it was supposed to be the hat & scarf - I also animated the swing as a hat & scarf combo (in 2_02_05) - so who knows what it's supposed to be?

Thanks, Nancy. Maybe Steve or Ken laid it out that way to get them out over the water. But after putting it back at 0,0,0 they still jitter. I'm looking at several other factors like Trot's hat, the one that's part of her model, moved out of view & constrained to the camera to keep it out - but that doesn't seem to cause it either.

I just tried reverting to revision 1053 from August, but rendering that shows it already had this jittering problem in the keyframing stage, so that eliminates the new constraints or anything about adding the scarf:

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Haven't figured out what caused Trot & Bill to jitter yet, but it's getting narrowed down. After removing numerous combinations of constraints and keyframes and other variations, I tried deleting the constraints on Bill and the first keyframe, including on the model bone, so it moved back to the origin; this got rid of the jittering:

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And the same for Trot:

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But after moving them back to the scene - they start shaking again!:

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Is there some kind of propagation of errors? Some tiny motion multiplied by the distance of the model from the origin? It doesn't seem to apply to Ork or the props.

I've also tried reverting it back to a still earlier revision in August, still jitters, but reverting way back to the layout stage, like revision 463, doesn't jitter. So I suppose the expedient thing is to revert it and start there? Although I don't mind trying any other suggestions or continuing trial and error.

I know you've tried deleting some constraints in the chor, but have you tried deleting all the constraints in the chor? This will tell you if the problem is in the chor or in an action file. If the problem is in an Action, maybe you won't have to lose any animation you've already done, you can redo the action instead.

Thanks. I did try to delete all the constraints, but first time around I missed the hat constrained to the camera; maybe I missed another one.