I put in the shoulder fan bones and then opened an action to see that theye was ok but the right arm is in a funny position when I open it ,it looks normal in bones mode .I must have hit something by mistake ,has anyone got any idea what Iv messed up please

Turn off all the poses in your character's user props and then put him in an action.

Then turn your TSM pose on to make sure it isn't doing anything weird.

If it's ok, turn your other poses on one at a time until weirdness happens. Then you know what to delete and od over or to try to repair.

BTW... you're putting each fan bone in a different pose? Normally you'd put them in one pose so you don't have to turn so many on later.

I turned all poses off and its still the same ,tried another action and still no go .I deleated the right shoulder fan bone pose relationship but its still the same .Can't think what I could have done .Trouble is I saved after making the fan bones so can't just go back a step
didn't realise you could do more than one constraint in a pose

If the model looks normal inthe model window, but takes a new position in an action or chor window, then some pose somewhere is turned on. You just dont know it.

You really dont' have TSM on in that pic? I see that arm trying to reach the FK control bones and that won't happen unless TSM is turned on.

I took a screen grab with poses on and one with them off ,as you can see on the first one the only thing I can see differant in left and right is the atach to parent ,its not showing on one and off on the other in 1 arm
could that make a differance Rob ,thank's for you help btw

Steve - all your Setup constraints should be in one pose. You can open the + next to Relationships, then User Properties Relationships, then whatever folder is under that, then right click your Setup pose and Edit Relationship.

Is your fan bone roll handle pointing the same way as your upper right arm 1 bone - towards the back? (Roll handle is the one sticking out at right angles to the bone, so that you can rotate the bone)

Have you rechecked EVERY pose? Because as Robert says, the only thing that makes a bone move when an action is started, is if a pose is turned on.

Can you zip up your model and attach it so we can take a look?

In my TSM mode, the right arm is parented like yours, so it wouldn't be that.

Caroline will post the model ,I should have left it untill tomorrow ,been working 18 hours and my head is a bit wayward lol

A bit wayward you say? Lol - That was the project you posted - I would guess that your model is not embedded in the project - maybe you could sent the .mdl file? (You may have to zip it first, if the forum does not like a .mdl).

Now you know what wayward is sorry about that

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I would say it is because "right upper arm 1" roll handle is pointing forwards not backwards. (One of the first things the 'rigging experts' taught me, during the workshop, thanks experts )

You'll need to go back to the version before you ran Rigger, correct it there, and rerun Rigger. It is possible to correct it afterwards, but you have to track down every bone created by TSM during Rigger and change them.

It was the TSM constraints ON - when I went into User Properties, under the Model's properties, and turned them all OFF to start, turning TSM ON made it go wonky.

Thank's Caroline I don't have the before version though I overwrit it like a dope ,it was ok untill I done the shoulder fan bones a couple of hours ago ,I think I must have hit something by mistake somewhere

I gota get some zzzzz falling asleep at the wheel here ,many thank's for your help and see you later cheers