I'm getting ready to create the key poses and I have a quick question:

In my sequence, Tin Woodman is going to quietly creep down a hallway where he hears rustling behind a door a short distance away from where he enters from another room.

If all we are suppose to be doing is key poses, am I animating the creep walk by hand or do I need to create a creeping walk cycle for Tin Woodman? If I'm creating a creeping walk cycle, am I only creating the key poses for the creeping walk cycle?

Do we already have a creeping walk cycle for Tin Woodman?

George

Do cycles when you can, and go ahead and fully animate them.

Last question:

Are we still using 24 fps?

There should be a creeping cycle on the TWO svn. If you don't still have it, you could browse for it using a web-browser. (Be sure to mark it as Tinman as it won't work with the new rigs.)

I set up all the chors/camera at 24fps. So I guess/hope we still are using it. (Don't change stuff like this in the Master Camera instance.....we can do it at the parent level to effect all chors.)

After updating, all there was was a chor with no project. When I opened the chor, the fps's were 30 but I think it's because I didn't set my default options to 24. I set the project fps's to 24.

George

We are not using projects, only chors. You may wish to create a temporary project for yourself, but please do not upload it to svn.

Quick question about facial expressions and an animation question

The sequence assigned to me is of Tin Woodman opening a door to a hallway, peeking down the hallway where he hears noise in a room. There's no dialog.
I have all my key poses just about done. My question is:

Even though this is just key poses, should I add the facial expression?

If I should, Can I use a chor action for just the facial controls or does it have to be an action?

Also, there's an owl in the chor on a path with no animatoin. Do I animate that too?

Thanks,
George

If you can manage it, I would say yes, do the facial animation at least on the key poses you have. That would be done in the chor as we need to know what he's looking at to give him the expressions. Just dialog (mouth shapes) are done in actions.
I guess his expression in that sequence would be a frowning one.....trying to find out where all the crows are going to.

The bird is a crow and you should probably time it to Tinmans actions. It's a straggler going into SCs room. No mention in the script, but I thought it would be a good way to let TW know exactly where he needs to go. I'll make a flying action for them soon and then we can just drop it on him.

Thanks.

The way I interpreted the shot was...

As Tin opens the door he sees the crow fly by. As I acted out the shot, I think Tin (as I would) would look in the direction where the crow came from first for a quick glance but then turn to see where it was going.

This is how I laid out the shot. I have tin peek his head in the open doorway. He looks to his right briefly first then looks to the left in the direction the crow is going.

I don't see tin frowning but more of a perplexed look of confusion and maybe a touch of frustration as he sees where the crow is going.

My idea is to have an expression of wonderment as he turns to the right and change to a perplexed look with a touch of anger as he turns right and heads to the room where the crow went.

The chor is set up with 2 camera angles. The first is of the door opening and tin peeking through then creeping in the doorway to the room. As He gets to a close to mid shot, the camera angle changes to a shot of the door where the the crow has flown in to.

In the second camera shot (as set up now) the crow is already in the room when the camera angle changes to show tin creeping up to the door. I think it would be clearer if we see the crow fly in the room just before tin enters the second camera angle.

The sequence would add a quick shot of the crow flying in the room.

The shot starts with the door shot showing the crow fly by the door just after tin opens it. Tin looks right then left. The camera cuts to the same camera set up it has now for the door shot only we see the crow fly in. The camera cuts back to tin where he creeps in. The camera cuts back to the door where the shot continues as before.

We'd still be using the same camera cut only we'd be using it twice.

What do you think?

George

[edit]

I just noticedt the scale of this "crow" is the size of an eagle. Can I scale this to proper size?

You're the Keyframer... You have full control of this Choreography.

Scale & place crow as needed.

Sounds good!

Scale Martin?

I haven't committed what I have just yet (had a family matter to deal with). I'll commit what I have done tonight.

Ken,

If you open the shot and look at the crow, it's too big to be a crow. It needs to be scaled down.

George

I don't know. 1 foot high and 2 foot long. Maybe a little but not much. These might be larger than life crows (ravens? ). That's the size the crows will be in the other shots (we're not going to scale all them down). But this shot is up to you.

The good thing about this new Keyframing stage is that we get to see how different ideas work out before they are committed to animation.

If that's the dimensions you're getting, then somethings not right. The measurements I get of the "CROW!" model in the Chor is


58 inch wing span

35" body length

just about 14" height.

Knowing nothing about crows, I did a search on them to get some info..

The site I found said the "American Crow" has:

a wing span between 33"-39"
a body length of 16"-21"

It didn't mention height.

[edit]

I just scaled the crow1 model shortcut 62.5%. This puts the crow at just the right scale with the American crow.

There was another reason I need to scale the crow, If I'm going to show the crow enter the room like I want to, I need to scale the crow just so it can fit threw the doorway without having the door to Scarecrow's room being fully opened.

George

Here's the scale of the crow I have and he easily fits in a doorway (same version as the one on server)....

Ken,

That is the same size scale I have too but the camera angle isn't showing the size. I attached a pic with the scale difference.

Not to belabor the issue here.... I just want to explain my reasoning for the scaling.

Unless Scarecrow's door is fully open and you time the animation so that the crow isn't in full wing span, the crow I have would not fit easily through the door.

I just measured the doorway. The doorway is approx. 41". With the crows wing span being 58", it'd be pretty tight.

I'd like to layout the shot with the door slightly open as it's set up right now. Technically you could get the full scaled version through a slightly open door if you have him fly in at an extreme angle but doesn't it make more sense to scale the crow to the size of an actual crow? That way although we'd still have to have him fly in at an angle, it would be easier to squeeze him in due to his smaller size.

At the scale I have it right now, the wing span is approx. 36".

Here's a pic of the crow at the end of the path inside Scarecrow's room. I hope this clarifies my reasoning.


Thanks,
George


Click to view attachment

I was imagining bigger differences. That clarifies it. Do what needs doing.

I'm having trouble setting the shot to hold. For some reason, when I set Tin Woodman to hold, he ends up at the end of the path.

Here's a mov of the shot. I still committed the Chor but I didn't set everything to hold.

George

Click to view attachment

Now that I've gotten 3 hours sleep hehe....

Can anyone tell me what I could be doing wrong when I set the keys to "hold"?

In my first attempt, I some how caused Tin's beginning positon to jump to the end of the path. The way Tin is set up, I have his "constrain to path" set to 0 enforcement until the camera change. After the camera change, The constraint is set to 100 and he starts at the beginning of the path with the Sneeking Action I found.

I had trouble with going from the path to animate the last part of him peering in SC's room so I did a trick that I've used before which is to turn off the Original Tin model and add another Tin shortcut that starts in the last pose. The trouble with this method is you have to painstakingly align the start pose of the second Tin shortcut to the end pose of the first Tin shortcut. I noticed a twitch in the arm so I'll fix that.

In my 2nd attempt I set everything to hold except the model bone. This seemed to work for the first part of the animation where tin enters the hall but I still had the path animation stuck at the end of the path.

Any suggestions (including a better way to go from path to chor animation) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
George

Oh....I wouldn't put another model of Tinman in there. This is only the layout phase, so it doesn't have to be perfect. I can look at the transition if you want.

With him jumping to the end of the path, it sounds like you're setting the ease constraint to hold. I'd have to see it though. Is it on svn?

Yes. I committed the chor before I went to bed. I was determined to have something committed.

That's what I'm probably doing then. I just group selected everything so that makes a lot of sense. I kinda figured I had selected something I shouldn't have but your mind is a bit foggy at 3:00am hehe.

I'd really appreciate it if you looked at it.

Thanks,
George

You're going to have to add and commit the action.....

tin woodman sneek_walk

I'll do it soon as I get home and edit this post when it's done.

OK....shot looks good from what I can see. I'd suggest TW looking up toward the camera first then the other way to see the crow. It seems to convenient that he looks directly in the direction of the crow.

Thanks. What I tried to do was have him look straight in and have the crow catch his eye. It's probably too subtle but it's just key poses so the finer details could clear that up.

I just committed the action.

Thanks for the help

George

Ah right. Maybe I'm really trying to say is we need a little more time to see tinman at the door way.....sort of an introduction. Then the crow flight would probably need to be slowed abit. But as you say, we can get that in clean up. Hope we remember. I'll take a look at that chor now.

OK, I've updated it with the transition. It's not perfect because there seems to be something wrong with bulls translating smoothly. If you look at the first picture, you'll see the hips null has an "Ignore fog" option. That doesn't seem right. I think Martin needs to check it out.

I notice you have alot of keys that don't do anything. Do you use the force keyframe option alot? In the image, there are keys, but they don't effect the curve at all. Also, some bones were keyed that aren't meant to be used at all. Such as the left arm hinge rotate FK orient. Not sure how that got keyed.

Don't worry too much about the transition. It'll get done.

When I set up the key poses, I create keys for all the bones I believe I'll be using in the first frame. Then I'll either use force key frame or I'll copy and paste the keys as a whole block.

This will undoubtably cause extra keys but the way I was taught, it basically locks in the bones for each pose. Later on the extra keys can be removed but for blocking, this is how I was shown to do it.

Did you get the chance to see the problem I had going from the path to Tin peering in the door? I'm not sure what I was doing wrong. To match the frame transition from "constrain to path" (using the "sneek" action) back to the chor action, what I do is copy and paste the pose that Tin ends on and (with constrain to path enforcement set to 0), I paste the pose into the chor and the goal is to animate from there. The problem I was having though was I for some reason couldn't move the bones. They were locked. This has happened to me before. It's usually because of having another action active while trying to adjust the bones from another action but (from what I could see) I had the chor action selected.

Like I said, because I've had this before, I went to my fix I did last time which is to use a new (shortcut to Tin) and copy the pose and animate from there. I'd like it to be one chor action but It wouldn't work. In experimenting with paths, I've noticed in the past that going from a chor action to a constraint to path and back, to the chor action, has problems (well at least for me).

If you can figure out a better way. I'd be very happy if you could show me it.

THanks again,
George

[Edit]

I just went in the chor and smoothened the transition by adjusting the right arm position on the "Peer Tin shortcut". So as to not overwrite any of the changes you did Ken, I saved my updated chor with a "b" appendix (1_01_02b).

Here's a render with the update. You'll notice the right arm has a much smoother transition.

Click to view attachment

When you're force keyframing, I would advise you turn off the constraint and poses filter. It's creating hundreds of keyframes that have to be cleaned up later. You just want to keframe the bones. Honestly, animation is easier if you keep your keys to a minimum of what you need. It's kind of like spline modeling that way.

This stage is just blocking. So, that means really we just make keys at the main pose frames. I would guess you would only need about 10 keyframes (poses) for this shot. Then using hold interpolation, the animation would switch between each pose. You have a keyframe almost every four frames.....that's more for straight ahead animation.
Of course, you can do more that blocking, but that means cleaning up after yourself.

Save over my chor. SVN is a version system so we can always go back if need be.

When you're force keyframing, I would advise you turn off the constraint and poses filter. It's creating hundreds of keyframes that have to be cleaned up later. You just want to keframe the bones.

I thought I was keyframing just the bones. Sorry about that. I'll remember to turn these constraints off. Thanks


Honestly, animation is easier if you keep your keys to a minimum of what you need. It's kind of like spline modeling that way.

The problem you run into is if you forget to key something (as I've done many times) you have to go back and add it to correct the animation. It seems more logical to me to lock in the keys.


This stage is just blocking. So, that means really we just make keys at the main pose frames.

I guess I don't understand "main pose frames" hehe. I thought key poses were poses that define the action. My bad.

What would be the key poses for creeping through the door and peering in Scarecrow's door?


I would guess you would only need about 10 keyframes (poses) for this shot. Then using hold interpolation, the animation would switch between each pose. You have a keyframe almost every four frames.....that's more for straight ahead animation.

Again I guess I don't get the "key poses" concept. If you tell me what those 10 frames are, I'll delete the remaining poses.



Of course, you can do more that blocking, but that means cleaning up after yourself.

LOL I thought I was blocking. Just tell me the main poses and I'll delete the rest.

Save over my chor. SVN is a version system so we can always go back if need be.

Will do. So is it OK to use the second Tin shortcut or is there a better way?

Thanks for the input,
George

Ah, don't delete anything. It's just for future reference.



For example, when tinman looks through the door to see the crow, it might be (think of these poses as holding for several seconds until the next one):

No Tinman in door
Tinmans head pops out
He looks straight ahead
He looks back
He looks in the direction of the door to see the crow go in.

We're just defining the timing and main poses before filling in the interpolation. (But as I say, you can animate it if you like).

Leave out the second Tinman. AM can handle it (normally)....we'll get the kinks worked out. Another tinman just complicates things.


Here's a definition of blocking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_(animation)

Well I was close at the beginning anyway.

If you look at the key poses, I added an anticipation by having Tin's hand popping in as my first pose for him.

I set up the key poses like this:

Door closed (crow in shot flying towards the camera in the distance on a path).
Door open (crow is closer but not at the door where Tin is about to enter).
Tin's hand pops in
Tin's fingers rest on the door frame
Tin leans in looking straight (sees the crow from the corner of his eye to his right)
Tin looks at the crow to the left (following it with his head as the crow flies off screen left)
Tin ends his stare with his head turned to the left looking perplexed.

Camera cuts to view of Scarecrow's door slightly open

Crow flies in from screen right (on path) swooping into Scarecrow's room.

Camera cuts back to Tin with slight perplexed look.

(here's where I added too many key poses)
I blocked all key action poses for entering into the hall to the creeping walk.

Camera cuts back to same view of Scarecrow's door.
Tin creeps into the shot from screen right (on a path).

(again I blocked all action poses instead of a single main pose)

Tin rests his hand on Scarecrow's door frame as he peers in.



I just though of how to make the shot work smoothly.

I still use 2 Tin shortcuts but instead of trying to match up the pose. Have the change happen at the camera change.

For example:

I have it now where Tin1 is constrained to the path but the enforcement is set to 0. Tin1 is then posed to peek through the door to see the crow. I then have the camera change. Once the camera changes, I set the "constrain to path" enforcement to 100 with the sneek action loaded. This works perfectly.

Right after the camera change, Tin1 smoothly constrains to the path and does the sneek action. At the end of the path, I tried to set the enforcement to 0 again and go back to the chor action but (for some reason) it wouldn't do it. This is where I added Tin2 to finish the shot by having him stop and peer in Scarecrow's room.

The problem with doing this (as you know) is that during the process of perfecting the timing, offsetting, etc, those poses won't match up.

I have Tin1 only do the peeking in to see the crow and creeping out of the doorway heading up the hall till the camera cuts. Then have Tin2 constrained to the path and finish the animation, I think that will work.

Now both poses for Tin1 and Tin2 can be perfected and not have any issues.

I believe there's no problem going from chor action to path action or path action to chor action but problems arise when you try to go back (I.E chor action to path action and back to chor action).

There is a third way and that is to create an action of Tin peering in and place it at the end of the path action but I think that would take more time to do than just change where Tin1 and Tin2 play out the shot.

I'll try it tonight.

George

OK. I'm done. I have all the chor action poses set to hold. I couldn't find a way to set the actions to hold without actually modifying them so I left the path action as is.

I also got the "walk to peer" action to work with the original Tin Woodman shortcut (I deleted the second one). All I did was I saved the "peer" choreography action as an action, imported it and set the blended.

If approved, the key framing should be done.

George

I'll get you a new assignment, George.

OK made the adjustment to the shot. I added another crow (it's actually the same crow). The first one gives a reason for tin to peek around the corner and the second one catches his eye. I also added a back view camera angle of Tin seeing one of the crows enter SC's room. Oh and I opened SC's door as requested.

Here's a mov of the changes. Remember this is only the keyframes in hold. The path animation has no hold.

Click to view attachment

Just let me know if it's OK to move on.

Oh and the lighting is going to have to be adjusted. I turned on the front light so I could see the shot better.

George

Hey George ... Nice take ..

I suggest you to rotate his forearm while he walks.. an example can be seen HERE. I also noticed the SC's feet sliding. And try to use the correct frame size 720x405...

Seems to be ok. Hard to tell with hold on.
Please don't change the camera resolution at all as it'll need to be corrected by someone. Also, any changes made to the root camera resolution (for preview rendering) won't be reflected in the instance camera in this shot.
In fact the only things that should be changed in the camera, if required, are the position/rotation and focal point. Even then, it's at a push.

Thanks Xtaz,

I'm only in blocking stage. The details will be ironed out in the next stage or stages (not sure how it works). The feet sliding thing I saw too but I didn't make the sneek cycle and I can never seem to get the feet to work perfectly with paths so that will be something that a pathing expert will have to figure out.

The render is only a quick thing to show the shot but in the future I'll create the proper resolution.

George

I made no changes to the camera except the position.

George

Looking good thus far George. Nice blocking.

I've been filming a few of the crows that live around our house. Every time I see them I think of SO.

If having the video reference would be of interest I can upload it to SVN. Most of what I have at this point is just hopping around. Not much flying yet but I perhaps I can have my daughters scare them toward me. Probably no way to strap a mo-cap suit on them.

Suggestions:

When the second Crow appears that would be an optimal time for a strong pose from Tin Woodman.
Perhaps having him look directly back at the Crow even while the crow is just off screen?
Then track the crow as he flies through?
Perhaps even a third look back down the hall as if to check to see if another one is coming?

Not sure if you'll have any time for that... so just food for thought.

(The frames aren't numbered so see attached pic for the frame )


As the sequence cuts to the shot of the second Crow flying into Scarecrows room I think there is an opportunity to fix a small glitch in continuity. As the second Crow has had some time to fly on ahead and Tin Woodman is following slowly the Crow is too close to him. One might expect the Crow to have flown halfway down the hall by then. Having Tin Woodman start from farther out of frame might help alleviate some of that discontinuity as there is less reference to where they are. The audience can just imagine they are farther down the hall. (Hope that makes sense)

More... 'for what its worth' from me.

After looking a few more times I don't think anyone will have a problem with the continuity there.
Press on... Press on!

You are off to a great start.

That's great George. Thanks a bunch. It looks really good.

I made that assumption because the dimensions of the camera are square rather than wide screen. I don't know what's going on there.