Hi David,

I'm trying to get my head around the face setup. I've assigned all the cps to bones and roughly weighted them. I can see my characters' face move in the setup action you include in the rig folder. Now, I'm following the pdf to get the face nulls to drive the bones of the face. I've hit a wall at the first paragraph.




I managed to find the poses mentioned here.....they're in a slightly different path location. What I don't get is what to do with the poses. Do I edit them? If I do, what bones am I supposed to move in each one?
Thanks.

Okay, the path is a slight typo...I'll get it corrected. It should read:




All of the adjustments to those Poses should be done using the Pose sliders in the "Properties" of the model...that way, the changes are a permanent part of the model. Also, wait until you have all of the "Face_underlying_controls" Poses set up before you start setting up the "FACE" interface Poses (the "Face_underlying_controls" will be used to drive the "FACE" interface).

Think of the "Face_underlying_controls" as the building blocks for the "FACE" controls. Lots of small Poses that can be combined into the larger Poses that are the "FACE" controls.

Does that help, Ken?

Here's an updated PDF of the face setup instructions with the typos fixed (I think I got all of them).

I'm out of time for this morning, but I'll post a rig update late tonight...Mark pointed out the need for an added instruction on turning off the auto-hips.

Thanks, Ken!


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I deleted this file because it is included in the next update here.

OK. So does that mean if I move say, the poses inside the folder called upper_lip_ud_upper_limits, then some bones on the face should move inside an action? They don't. Have I done something wrong in the installation?

No, the Poses in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls//face_setup" folder are for setting up limits, so those Poses don't move anything (except for a couple that are there to set up cheek movement in squints). If you use the included setup Action, the controls that move things are moved so that you can set the limits.

Open the setup Action, go to the keyframes indicated in the PDF instructions and adjust the limits Poses indicated in the model's "Properties" (instead of the "Pose Sliders" for the Action). There should be movement then, but, it will be because you are moving the limits.

Hope that helps, Ken.

Ah. I think something clicked. I use the limits poses to drive the bones and change the shapes and look in an action (using the FACE nulls) to check how they look. If that's the case, I assume all the FACE nulls should move something, but right now only some of the mouth nulls are moving the mouth on my character. The rest don't do anything at all. Is something wrong?

The FACE nulls don't come into play yet, that is about the last thing you'll end up doing. First, you have to build the small Poses that make up the FACE Poses. Each lip Pose in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/mouth_ud_individual" folder, "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/mouth_lr_individual" folder, and so on have limits that need to be set. The setup Action that is included in the Zip file is to help with the process. That Action has pre-made movements that should give you the extremes that are needed for setting the limits on all of the parts of the face.

Open the "face_setup_04_07_2008.act" Action, go to each keyframe listed in the "Face_Setup_04_07_2008.pdf" instructions and adjust the Pose sliders indicated, but adjust the sliders that are in the Properties of the character instead of in the Action itself...that will make the changes a permanent part of the character.

Once you have all of the limits set and have tweaked the CP Weighting so that all of the movements look like you want, then you edit the FACE Poses. Since the Poses in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips" folder are edited, most of the heavy lifting would already be done and you can pretty much move those Pose sliders to build the Poses for the FACE controls.

Once that is done, I go through and build the Preston Blair Poses that are part of the FACE controls using the FACE controls themselves. I don't use those Poses generally, but it's a good way to double-check everything.

Hope that helps, Ken.

OK, moving the poses in here gets some movement in the action. All the sliders are defaulted at 0%. Moving them to 100% doesn't do anything though and that's the direction I want the lips to go (the gums aren't showing). How can I edit the bones so they move up further?

You shouldn't have to go into any of the Poses and edit the bones, Ken.

When you set the limits, what you are doing is positioning bones that define those limits. The mouth bones then will "orient like" those bones at the extremes of the Poses in the "ud" or "lr" mouth Poses. Those limit bones will rotate 30 degrees in either direction, which gives you a maximum of 60 degrees of rotation (for the mouth)...I don't think you understand what I'm saying yet.

You don't have to move those Poses manually...use the "face_setup_04_07_2008.act" Action. The instructions list the keyframes, what is going on with the controls at each keyframe and which Poses you need to adjust at those points in the Action.

I tried to be as detailed and specific as I could in the "Face_Setup_04_07_2008.pdf" instructions...I'll have to re-read them to see how bad of a job I did getting the information across. Is everyone having the same problem? Maybe my wording is confusing.



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Okay, I'll try to clarify a little...maybe it will help.

Open the "face_setup_04_07_2008.act" Action, open the "Properties" panel, then highlight the character's name in the "Objects" folder in the PWS...that should allow you to adjust the Pose sliders in the "User Properties/Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/face_setup" folders. On the first frame, the lips should be at their maximum width with the upper lip at its' upper limit and the lower lip at its' lower limit. To define those limits, adjust the Poses in the "User Properties/Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/face_setup/mouth_ud_limits_setup" and "User Properties/Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/face_setup/mouth_lr_limits_setup".

After you get it like you want, go to the next defined keyframe (frame 5) and follow the next set of instructions in the PDF.

Does that help?

Aha. Now I'm getting something. I thought I had tried this, but apparently not. As I've marked in the image, the lower sliders don't do alot. Maybe they're the ones I did before.

Right, I think I'm set to start setting the limits.

You may consider combining the left and right side together in the one slider.....eg left/right mouth upper 2. That would cut the number of sliders and work required to define the limits. I don't know if there's any situation where you would want a-symmetry at this stage. That can be done with the nulls.

Thanks for the help David (assuming I have it this time). I'm sure I'll be asking again.

The reason those limits aren't doing anything is that they are the "inner" limits...for the wide limit, you need to adjust the "outer" limits.

You're probably right about combining the right and left sides, Ken...I'll put that on my to-do list. Thanks!

Just a quicky......

On page 6 of the pdf, what am I trying to do. The center splines of the lips move to the right. What's it for? How far should they go? Thanks.

You are setting the left/right limits (pages 6 and 7) of the center of the lips. Up to that point, that is the only part of the mouth that doesn't have those limits yet.

How far depends on the character, but I would think that the limit would not quite reach the next right/left lip spline if the mouth has the number of splines that Squetchy Sam has. Some people would have more splines, so that rule would be a little different for them.

Hope that helps.

That's probably all true. But can you give that to me in animation speak? I mean, like what mouth shape is this for. Mouth left and mouth right are the only shapes I recall that cross the centerline.

Edit: Another example of how you could reduce poses is here. These two could be combined into one pose called LowerTeeth_right/left_limit

I've been getting different results to the images in the pdf in the teeth area. On page 18 for example, when I move that pose, the teeth don't move with the jaw bone. Shouldn't the maxilla and lower teeth bones be children of the jaw_geom bone?

It's just about covering all of the possibilities, Ken...or at least as many as we can. Not having the center of the mouth able to cross the center line would look kind of strange to me. Of course, most of that kind of movement can be accomplished using the Maxilla and LowerTeeth bones, but those move the entire upper (Maxilla) and lower lip (LowerTeeth). I'm sure there are going to be plenty of characters that will talk out of one side of their mouth or have an over-the-top sneer or something...that would make the ability to cross the center line of the mouth pretty useful.

Nosir, that one wouldn't be possible. You are setting two limits that are two separate things. You are positioning two different bones at two different locations.


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Hold on, you're right Ken....it's late in my day.


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I'll add that to my to-do list as well (I've already added the last suggestion for the next release). Thanks!

I agree totally! But that's the first time I've heard that's what I was trying to achieve with that pose. I like to know why I'm doing things rather than follow the pictures blindly.

Any ideas on this?:



Thanks David.

Edit: Just saw your other post. I'll hold on to see what develops.

Edit1: Maybe the Maxilla bone shouldn't be a child of the jaw.

No, the Maxilla and LowerTeeth bones are for the lips in this setup (the LowerTeeth bone works differently in a muscle-based setup, its' name is misleading when used in the bones rig). You want to be able to have a character push the jaw forward or back without opening the mouth...during chewing or whatever.

My thinking is that you have the teeth CP's assigned to the LowerTeeth bone...I would assign the lower teeth, gums and lower throat to the "Jaw_geom" bone.

Hope that helps, Ken.

That's the problem. I had the lower teeth assigned to the LowerTeeth bone.

EDIT



True. The original FACE interface didn't cater for that option (based on the Stop Staring book). As long as there's a way to move the lower lips with the lower teeth/jaw easily using the nulls I'll be happy.

Another one for you......

On p29, I followed the instructions for the upper lid movement with the eyes. As you can see, the lids need to go down more. As you can also see, the poses are at 100%. What can I do? Same for the lower lids.

Also, on the last page, should moving the blink pose do something? It doesn't for me. Or do we need to edit the pose to get it to move the lids?

Once I get these sorted out I've finished the pdf. Are there instructions for after that?

Have you adjusted the CP Weighting? Check the weighting on Squetchy Sam's eyelids for comparison.

There was a problem with eye targeting when the InstallRig plugin was run before positioning the FACE controls (the instructions had the error in them, but is corrected now)...I don't know exactly what that did, Mark found and fixed it in a few models. So, that's another possibility.



At the 5:00 keyframe in the face setup Action the "Blink" Pose is at 100%, so the eyelids should meet.

If you open a new Action and unhide the eye bones using the "Show_and_Hide_Rig_Components/hide_face_setup_bones/eyes_and_eyelids/hide_eye_geom_bones" Pose, are they pointing forward? You can also unhide the eye targets using the "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Show Eye Targets" Pose...do the eye bones aim at those targets? Are the targets in the right place or have they moved from the default location?

This problem could be part of the same problem of running the InstallRig plugin before positioning the FACE controls...I'm not sure. If you can't locate the problem, point me at the model and I'll take a look at it.



For setting up the FACE Poses, the only set of instructions are the videos that Mark Strohbehn made for setting up a muscle-based rig...they are located here. There are some differences since those videos were made, but watching them should still be helpful. Other than that, Squetchy Sam is an example. If you look at how the FACE Poses are set up in him, it should steer you in the right direction.

Sorry for the delay in getting the updated tutorial done.

I'll take a look and see if I missing some of the targeting bones. The blink targets may be out of position.

[EDIT] The blink poses in the Face interface may need adjusting. (p31 pdf)

Mark, I've committed Bill so you can take a look when you get a chance.

David, that thread you linked to gives the mouth shapes to aim for, but it uses muscle mode to build them. Now we're using bones as you know. How do we build them.....grab the bones directly or use poses?

Thanks guys.

Since the heavy lifting is done in the face setup, use those Poses to make the FACE Poses. The only Poses that you'll have to dig into the Pose itself or manually move a bone are the eyebrow Poses and any Pose that requires muscle movement. Here's a list:

1. For the "lip curling" Poses, it might require some muscle movement, but, for the most part I use the "roll" lip geometry bones that are children of the lip geometry bones. Transfer the weighting necessary to those bones and then use them as handles to curl the lip...it makes it easier for me to shape the lips. You don't have to use those bones, you could just go with muscle movement if you are more comfortable doing it that way. The lip curling Poses I'm referring to are:

"Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/lip_upper_right_curl"
"Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/lip_upper_left_curl"
"Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/lip_lower_right_curl"
"Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/lip_lower_left_curl"

2. The eyebrow Poses located in the "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Upper Face Poses/Eyebrows" folder. To set those up, I use an Action to figure out what I want the brows to look like when they are raised, lowered or squeezed by manually moving the eyebrow bones. Then, I split up the bone rotation values into the separate Poses...use Squetchy Sam as a guide.

3. The "Animation_Controls//FACE Interface/IndividualEyesDilate" Poses are muscle Poses.

4. The "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Lower Face Poses/Sneer - Frown - Cheek Puff - Dimple controls/Dimples" and "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Lower Face Poses/Sneer - Frown - Cheek Puff - Dimple controls/CheekPuff" Poses are muscle Poses.

5. The "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Lower Face Poses/SmileWide - Narrow Mouth controls/RightNarrowOO" and "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Lower Face Poses/SmileWide - Narrow Mouth controls/LeftNarrowOO" Poses will need some muscle movement for the puckering.

6. Just because it isn't obvious, I'll list this one too. The "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Upper Face Poses/LeftSquint" and "Animation_Controls/FACE Interface/Upper Face Poses/RightSquint" Poses are made using the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/face_setup/cheek_movement_for_building_squints" Poses.

Squetchy Sam is a good guide for how to set everything up.

Hope that helps, Ken.

OK. I think I'm getting it.

Is there a way to make the mouth corners go out for the puckering motion? The slider makes the bone go in through the teeth but it needs to go round the teeth.

Also, is there anyway to inverse paste the right pose shape into the left pose shape? Or do we have to do the left side sliders separately?

You'll have to use the in/out Poses along with the left/right Poses and up/down Poses to get everything to move inward for the pucker. Then, you'll have to add some lip curling (so you'll have to build those lip curling Poses I mentioned) and muscle movement...check Squetchy Sam's Poses.



Sure, if you make sure the key buttons are selected for what you need (along the bottom left of the interface) it should mirror. I have had problems getting some things to mirror, so I just put the values of the sliders in manually...it only takes a couple of seconds and it's bullet-proof. I generally only mirror any muscle movement...which is very little in most characters.

How do I move the brows? The bones are all hidden in an action?

Yesir, you can unhide them using the "Show_and_Hide_Rig_Components/hide_face_setup_bones/hide_face_geom_bones".

The targeting looks ok to me. Adjust the "eyeblink setup" poses in the FACE interface folder. (not the auto preset ones)

I've finished working through "Face_Setup_04_17_2008.pdf" and now I'm lost.
I'm looking through Squetchy Sam's User Properties but I cannot figure out how to start defining poses for the FACE ui.
At the moment, only the "eye blink" null is doing anything.
Can someone (David? Ken? Anyone?) please give me a clue about where to go to hook the FACE Nulls up to the underlying poses I set up in the pdf instructions?

Thanks

You have to edit the FACE Poses, Holmes. Open each Pose for the FACE controls and then use the Poses you set up already to build the FACE Poses.

The closest set of instructions for setting up the FACE controls are for setting up a muscle-based control system, but it might give you some idea...that's located here. Since this isn't a muscle-based setup, it's a little different, but Squetchy Sam should give you an idea.

Did that help? Which Poses are you having trouble with? If you still have problems, post, PM or e-mail.

We're also going to look into generic poses so the FACE will work for the most part. Some poses will need editing, but it will be better than not having them setup at all.

Give me one more evening and I should have a PDF of FACE setup instructions...I ran out of time before getting it done today.

Thanks for your replies David and Mark. I've been running around a lot the past few days and haven't had a chance to work on my rigging project.
One pose I know I was having trouble with was the NarrowOO pose.
I know I defined an underlying pose that does exactly what the NarrowOO pose is supposed to do, but I can't find it and I don't know what poses to adjust in the NarrowOO relationship to get that effect.
Do you know what poses I need to adjust?

The "NarrowOO" Pose uses the "RightNarrowOO" and "LeftNarrowOO" Poses, so setting up those two Poses sets up the "NarrowOO". Both the "RightNarrowOO" and "LeftNarrowOO" will require adjusting Poses in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/mouth_ud_individual" and "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips/mouth_lr_individual" folders, the lip "curl" Poses in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/lips" folder and some muscle movement.

I'm almost done with the PDF file that outlines setting up the FACE controls. I'm hoping to get it posted tonight. Sorry for the delay, Holmes.

Thanks David. Don't worry about the delays. I'm just grateful that you respond. There isn't any way I could install this rig without your and Mark's help.

On one hand, I'm awed by the incredible amount of time and effort you guys put into the rig and documentation. It's obvious you collectively put hundreds of hours into this.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely overwhelmed by the sheer complexity of it. There are times when I have to stop working on the rigging because my brain just shuts down and refuses to go any farther. This rig is not for the faint of heart.

I think this exercise is very good for me because I will think twice before pestering a TD to add some cool new feature to a rig. I would much rather just improvise with what's there than add another level of complexity to something that already works pretty well.

A word of advise: When some animator suggests a new feature - ignore him/her

I posted an update to the rig here, it includes the instructions for setting up the FACE controls with the bones rig. I had a lot of other things going on, so it took me longer than it should have.

We're trying to make the rig as easy to set up as we can. Hopefully, the more tutorials we can get out, the less mysterious it will seem.

There are plenty of things in the Squetch Rig that were suggested by animators...there's always a better mouse trap.

Thanks for that awesome face setup tutorial David. It's a life saver.

I'm at the place in the PDF tutorial where I'm setting up the tongue poses.

In Squetchy Sam, the tongue_target_base bone appears to be constrained to aim at the tongue_target null with "Scale to Reach" turned ON.
Also, the tongue bones appear to be constrained to "Orient Like" the tongue_target.
But in my model, none of those constraints appears to be in place. Do you know in which pose I should apply these constraints?

Also in face_setup -> cheek_movement_for_building_squints : cheek_right_up and cheek_left_up aren't doing anything. Should some bones be moving with these poses?

Thanks

They should be on, Holmes. Make sure the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/head_on/off_constraints/tongue_constraints" Pose is "on" in the model Properties. If that is on, then check that the constraints have enforcements applied in that Pose. If that Pose is messed up, delete the Relationship in that Pose and drag that Pose from Squetchy Sam into your character.

If none of that works, let me know.



Yes, the cheek "geom" bones will move. Unhide the cheek bones by using the "Show_and_Hide_Rig_Components/hide_face_setup_bones/hide_face_geom_bones" Pose and then mess with the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/face_setup/cheek_movement_for_building_squints" Poses to see if the bones move. If the cheek bones aren't moving, check the constraints in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/head_on/off_constraints/cheek_constraints" Pose to make sure there are enforcements applied to the constraints...also check to make sure that Pose is turned "on".

Hope that helps...if it doesn't, I'll try again.

Thanks David. They appear to be working now. tongue_constraints and cheek_constraints were both OFF. In addition, the tongue geom bones had all acquired a length of 0 in the model somehow. I fixed the problems and everything seems OK.

One more thing. The Sneer poses don't appear to do anything in my model or in Squetchy Sam. None of the sneer bones appear to be moving. I hunted through Sam's properties and all the constraint poses seem to be ON. Do you have any idea how to get the sneer bones to move?

I know the Sneer Poses work in Squetchy Sam...I don't know why they aren't working for you, Holmes.

Unhide the face geometry bones using the "Show_and_Hide_Rig_Components/hide_face_setup_bones/hide_face_geom_bones" and then use the sneer nulls...that should make the cheek, nostril and nostril base bones move. If they don't, check to make sure you have all of the nose setup Poses set...they are in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/face_setup/nose_setup" folder. The Pose that would be the culprit is the "nostril_Y_translation_limit" if that is the problem, I'm thinking.

The only other possibility off the top of my head would be that the Expression got messed up...that is in the "Animation_Controls/Face_underlying_controls/face_setup/face_setup_Expressions_DO_NOT_TOUCH" Pose. If all else fails, changing that out might fix it. Although, since you are having problems with Sam as well, I'm thinking you probably just need to restart A:M.

If none of that helps, I'll try again.

OK, I have turned my computer off overnight, restarted AM, deleted my copy of Squetchy Sam and extracted a new Sam from the downloaded zip file.
I am testing out "v13_Squetchy_Sam_04_23_2008.mdl". All the FACE controls seem to work for him EXCEPT the Sneer controls.

I unhid the face bones and none of the bones move when I drag the Sneer Null. I looked in the poses in the Nose_Setup folder but I don't really know what to look for. "nostril_Y_translation_limit" does move stuff, so I think that is working.

I could try to switch out the "face_setup_Expressions_DO_NOT_TOUCH" pose, but since this is Squetchy Sam I'm looking at, I'm not sure where to get a replacement pose from.

Any ideas?

The sneer pose/control works fine for me (v14c). I'm not sure why you are having a problem. Try redownloading the zip.

Do you still have v13 or v14 installed on your computer? If you do, try it in thoses versions to see if it works.

I tried the sneer 15b (face slider in 1, 2, 3, 4 % ) and the sneer does not work for me either -

and after playing around with other things - turning things on off, moving nulls - in the window - not in the pws - the sneer null became a child of the sync null in the pws - more weirdness - I DID NOT MOVE/DRAG THE SNEER NULL in the PWS -

I have seen something like this happen before also in 14c with other models (the chief loon) - with his arm bones:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=252445

I'm not sure what you are talking about Nancy. To me, it looks as though the sneer pose is working in the image you posted.

As for the other problem, I don't know, you are the only one that seems to have this problem.

I'm with Mark, I think it's an issue with v15b...I checked v13t and v14c and didn't have a problem.

Holmes, is it possible that you moved the sneer null in the window, then used the pose slider to turn the sneer pose off? This would cause the sneer null to stop working. Or maybe have the sneer pose set to 100% in the user properties?