Here'a a shot at Pessim trying to see if the 'Boiler Hat' is a fit.

Heh. It looks funny/good. But it feels like something like that would be more suitable for a technical person. Someone like Ku Klip for instance. Is there a back story as to why a character would look like this? (I could see it fitting on the witch more as she's evil and maybe needs something like this to shield her from good souls).

I had it on the Witch to begin with. Nancy wanted to be able to see the Witch's face and suggested Pessim, who's a grumpy, tempermental character. Actually, the hat would fit anyone with the temperment. Is Ku-Klip in this story?

Hmmm...

The frog is great! Love the long, scraggly beard

The pose for Pessim is too energetic - so it's confusing in communicating his character - But I will ignore that, 'cause the pose doesn't matter. I want to see him looking depressed, cranky, old, slow moving. Shall I post a picture of myself?

I think it's pretty funny he's in his long johns. Somehow I pictured him dressed in something long & dour. How about a long overcoat of sorts? A bathrobe-ish type thing - as he never gets out of bed? but we can still see his long johns - eh - maybe not necessary. Long johns is good.

The glasses look like they lift? I like that - He could lift them when something catches his attention, or he's sneaking a peek, and abruptly close them back down again as if to shut out the world.

The crown part on the boiler is confusing - could change the design of the top, as he's not royalty of any sort (I don't believe).

I think we need to know more of what this boiler contraption manufactures? What does it spew? Bile? breakfast gruel ? rain clouds? flies for the frog to eat? negative thoughts, images as he speaks ? Somehow it has to tie in with his encounter with Tinman - where he describes the earth depressing under footsteps, the sun coming up for no reason (something like that - can't exactly remember - too lazy to go find it).

EDIT: - oh yeah - the other thing that is making him look too engaged with life, too energetic is that the glasses are too large, too wide eyed - perhaps they should be small as in granny glass size - to go with his small narrow minded view of the world ? - more like you had when the hat was on the witch

I also though of him as having a dirty old bath robe and slippers, but I like the long johns. It saves me from having to do cloth sims on him

After seeing the legs in the end of this thread, I thought of the SO characters....

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showt...mp;#entry259278

Here's a description of Pessim:

http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/L_Frank_Bau..._Island_p1.html

I wonder how small he is. I don't think he's as small as a frog. I think just small in human terms. He did eat the berries once to make him smaller.....but has since eaten the "big berries".

So, any developments on Pessim? I kind of see him as a Robinson Crusoe type character.....he's been banished to this land to live the rest of his life all alone. He'd be abit loony and probably have a long grey beard....maybe wear shorts and a shirt all year round....with braces. Big ears for hearing all the negative stuff in life?

OK, I'm going to start on the character in the first post without the hat contraption and we can work from there.

Don't forget the toad.

OK. But just so everyone's clear, Pessim only talks about being small in the original. If we're changing it for good reasons, then that's fine. That said, it's a little odd that Tinwoodman doesn't ask him how he became so small.

Here's the original text of what happened to Pessim:

But if we included that in the script, it would give the witch a way to resume her old evil stature after she has shrunk to a harmless size. That could be good if we are going to make a sequel where the witch comes back, but if we are not going to make a sequel, I would suggest leaving it out.

I'm really talking about the size of Pessim rather than including all that quoted information. So, in the original, he's already eaten the dark purple berry and returned to normals size when the others meet him. As I say, as long as that's known it's fine. It could present camera positioning headaches with someone so small.

There might be some difficult positioning of the camera but most likely I think it would encourage very dramatic interesting camera angles, and switching of POV. For example, from TM's viewpoint looking down at Pessim, or from Pessim's viewpoint looking up at TM.

There could also be camera framings with TM bending down to Pessims height, where the frame contains just TM head at eyeball level & Pessim, & toad in FOV - sorta like Gullivers Travels, and of course Alice in Wonderland.

I think the size difference adds a lot of interest.

Here's what popped out of the splines. If there's no problems, I'll get on to his body. I'm assuming we're still going with the long johns......

hee hee - my, my.

Isn't he too pretty?

(seriously - he's perfectly decrepit)

Looks great Ken.
Wonder how he would look with a nose that droops a little and ears twice their current size.

Ears bigger (130% as 200% was massive) and droopy nose.....along with other minor changes. Better or worse? I can't tell anymore.

The more exaggerated ears look better. Smaller eyes would make him look older and more narrow minded. But not necessary.

Smaller eyes. So the ears are "exaggerated" enough now?

Ears look good to me.

The eyes could be moved closer to the nose and even made smaller for a more caricatured look. You might want to try some forehead wrinkle crease, for more decrepitudinessity. But that could be done with texturing.

He looks good enough to be ornery as he is.

Also - if you REALLY want to have some fun with him - you could make him toothless and add some upper lip, wrinkle, sunken in mouth - using the guy that Robcat referenced in this thread as inspiration.

But I still think he is plenty good as he is.

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=261426

I can't resist. Maybe there should be a Mrs Pessim ?

(Meet Domenica and Vincenzo from Palermo, Sicily. One might say I'm "connected". It's a good thing my cousin's husband's relatives don't even know what a computer is)

Asymmetry in the face would also make him look crazier. Eg One eye bigger, lips askew

That'd be easiest done in a pose I'd say. Don't forget about it. I'll put some wrinkles on his forehead and call him done for now. On to his body.

Edit: Here's the final version. Definite improvement to the first.

Very nice Ken. I like your improvements.
Two questions/considerations:

Cap'n Bill and Pessim look a lot alike at this point.
I'm sure they will look a lot different in full costume and textured though.
Their personalities should set them apart too.

I've circled in the attachment an area under the ear that seems unnatural to me.
That may be just the way he's modeled and a pose would help his ears settle in a bit?

Interestingly enough closing that gap would make Pessim look even more like Cap'n Bill so... perhaps best to leave alone?

For what its worth... outstanding work as usual.
I'm looking forward to seeing these guys animated.

Ah old guys. They all look alike. Rest assured their profiles are very different. The gap at the ear is just a consequence of jaw bone being so far in and his ears being big and sticking out. I could change all that, but then he'd lose some/alot of character. Though I did adjust a few cps to minimize it.

Yeah I like the ear sticking out thing.

Rodney has a point. But I don't believe Capt'n Bill & Pessim will be seen together.

(Rodney - unnatural? get your head out of the reality gutter. The guy is 6 inches? or less ? tall)

To be honest, they don't seem that similar to me other than they both have white hair, a nose, two eyes and ears etc. Their face shapes are radically different. Maybe it's just the shot you're seeing them from and will think different when you see the models.

The ears and nose are swiped from Bill.....but changed.

What you say about old guys looking alike is true to some extent. I also think Bill & Pess could be made to look different enough with hair, texturing.

The design of Pessim could be pushed further to make him appear crazy. Asymmetry could do it. As you say - a pose could be done. That would be a personal choice. If Pess had a more whimsical type outfit - it might help even more. Whimsical hat, whimsical long johns.

I think we're all so conditioned by TWO where the character designs were so different looking (different designers) - seemed like they could have been in different movies. This is in contrast to other animations where the designs are specifically made to look consistent. I originally thought the differences in design wouldn't work. I was wrong. I now think it can work either way.

For Jinxers, I think it's a good idea for them to be different from each other. But I don't think it's a requirement. I think Jinxers should definitely be different from Bill & Trot (humanoidalish).

To me, Bill & Pess look like they share DNA. Just like in real life. They could be believed to be brothers, or father & son (son Bill without his white hair) or cousins.

What makes them appear that way is that their nostrils and nose width, length & nose endings are similar, their eye opening shapes, angle, eyelids are similar. the lip shapes are similar, their lines from the nose down (forget what that's called) are similar.

But as I said before Bill & Pess won't be seen together - so it's more than likely OK.

This is just an example of slight mods that might? make them appear less similar. The nose length, shape is still too similar, IMO.

Eye angle on pessim changed, distance between nose and mouth shortened - to give appearance of not as long a face as well as perhaps that he doesn't have teeth.

Then again. Just to really stir the pot - If we used a KuKlip morph for Bill (& Trot is a Woot morph - making them consistent) - then wouldn't have to worry about similarities between Jinxers and Human Kansas people.
(But if anyone asks - I'll deny saying that)

Seeing them side beside like that does indicate they are a bit more different than I first thought.



Nancy's mod definitely shows what a little more can do to differentiate the two.
I like that Nancy... the asymmetry very much.

The slight change in skin color, assuming that isn't just a change in lighting, helps also.

I'm not worried about them looking the same... Just suggesting they be different. It's one of those first impression things and I've learned to trust that instinct.

As you've both mentioned they are certainly different.
Not having seen the profiles I'm at a disadvantage. Ken knows as he modeled both.

Once fully modeled maybe we can do a silhouette test and see how easy it is to spot each character.
My guess is that the one that looks like he has a peg leg with be Capn' Bill.

Here's the silouettes. I think with different lighting and skin materials similarities will be less obvious too.

Actually... that's a Profile but I'm enjoying every image I get.

Here are the silhouettes (from the profile view):
Edit: FWIW - I've added a look at the differences between the two.

Ahhh...yes...seeing the silhouettes makes it much more obvious that they are different (and less similar than I originally thought)

Taking a break from clothes and boots....zzzz.....here's the toad....they've got weird legs. The eyes aren't exactly right, but they'll do for now.

Any chance you can make him a slightly grotesque bullfrog instead of a plain vanilla toad? The frog would probably be as unpleasant and depressed as Pessim himself - bloodshot eyes etc.

Ken...Ken...KEN...KEN!!!
You are a machine!

Please record yourself modeling and I'll buy the whole series of videos.
It doesn't have to be polished... raw format will do.
If I could model with 1/10th of your ability I'd have talent for years.

(Seriously... record your work. If you aren't sure how to approach it... email me!)


Sorry... back to your regularly programmed project.

I think a cute (or at least non-descript) frog would make Pessim less threatening to the audience.

I didn't feel (from reading the script) that Pessim was threatening - just quirky, eccentric, crazyish (delusional about the sun), crank. Also last I looked he was smaller than the Toad. True? Tinman could squash Pessim easily if he wasn't such a nice guy.

Do you want him to be threatening?

Maybe the Toad should be threatening ? - sort of like an attack Watch Toad on a chain for Old man Pessim - Toad gives loud vicious warning croaks to any approaching strangers, and has to be fed the bones of small animals, insects to divert him from ripping visitors apart. (I'm serious unfortunately)

Thanks Rodney. I'll see but no promises....

I just modelled the toad in the sketch but a toad is pretty much a toad. The character will probably be expressed in the texturing and posing. Unless we're going characture/sci-fi where he could have horns and a ring through his nose and stuff like that.
But I quite like the idea that Pessim has taken this nice toad against it's will and turned it into a taxi service. lol

There are two things under consideration here.
1. Recording your work
2. Distributing your work

Of the two the first is infinitely more important.
I think its important for you to record your work if nothing else so you can go back and look at it 10 years from now.
This argument could apply to everyone but, I've gotta say, not everyone has your talent or speed in modeling.

Sharing it with others is only a factor if you want to go that route.
But having your work recorded gives you that option.

Body added. I think I hate modeling clothing as much as shopping for it. I still plan to tweak his hair and add buttons all the way up his middle tomorrow. Let me know if anything else needs doing.....

I didn't know Long Johns came in purple? Were they on sale at Harrod's?

He looking good.

Looks like a great Pessim to me. The tops of his boots look like something heavy and rigid, like thick steel. But it isn't a deal breaker for me.

LOL. And to think you had to suffer through THE most fashion conscious character of them all (Googly Goo). If you don't mind, I would love to put some Italian leather boots on Goo when the opportunity arises.

If they're relatively low patch and look good, sure.....probably better to wait till the svn folder gets set up.

Purple....yeah, I guess it's my fashion sense showing through. Perfect for Pessim.

Daniel, here's the models. Toad could probably get his own folder. I haven't included the eye images as you have them already.