Design by John Neill

Disney version.

The witch.

Wow, very unexpected. Not your average run-of-the-mill witch.

Cool. Your designs are really rooted in the "steam age". Which could be appropriate for the era the story was written in. I'm kind of torn though.....the green skinned witch in the movie was very iconic.

Thanks, Ken. I hadn't thought of 'steam age' in this context, but, yes, you're right. When drawing, I find myself veering away from anything that I feel L.Frank Baum would not recognize. Hence the balloons, which he would, and even the Zeppelins. Baum died in 1919.

The push rods on the glasses adjust the distance from her face, and lift up and down. The witch can look around without turning her head. The whole cylindrical section that holds the glasses rotates a full 360 and [ if we go with this version] should be moving often, checking on what's happening. Evil plotters are always on the alert for evil plots.

I see the amount of steam/smoke coming from the hat as the indicator of her moods. When sparks and cinders start boiling out, she's about to blow. The fumes could be noxious. In a bad mood, the witch could clear a room just by arriving.

And green? Green is good. How about with a speckled, spotted pattern?

Nice drawings

I usually like the unexpected. And I love the concept of a boiler hat - but think it might be better on some other character, perhaps Pessim?. Smoking out doom & gloom boiling over from his head/hat.

I'm really not liking that her face, & especially that the eyes are concealed. That's ok to hide the face for the guards and minor characters that are filler - but for a main female villain - not for me. I didn't get Darth Vader either. But he was a manly villain.

IMO great female villains are that we love to hate them - ie they are likeable in some way - Yoop is an example of a female villain that doesn't work. She was just too damn ugly, with a lizard tail? - nothing likeable about her (except maybe her eyes). She was very hard if not impossible to love to hate.

I also feel with this character, aside from not seeing her face, her body shape is wrong. She can be fat (which I like) or skinny - but her current fat shape is not likeable to me. Yoops body shape also was just wrong. She was too masculine. This one feels too masculine as well to me.

I might do a "girly" witch for myself. Which little guyzzz might hate. But little girls might like.

Well...yeah. I too feel that witch needs work. The hat is the best part. I'll push around some more paper. See what you can do with her.

Who, by the way, is Pessim? I don't see him in the Synopsis Martin sent. I went to the TWO part of the site and did a Search: nothing. Found the Cast of Characters...still no Pessim.

Pessim (in the original) is the first guy the group meet on the isolated island. He complains about water being too wet and is never happy.

Thanks, Ken. Is there a verbal description out there, or an illustrated starting point that I can take a look ?

If you download Martin's V2 of the script, you can read the chapter with Pessim. It's chapter 8 (~page 8 if you print it on 8.5x11 paper).
Apparently he is small because Tin Man almost stands on him without even noticing him.
He also rides a big toad.
He's pessimistic about everything and not very friendly.
Sort of like a disenchanted elf who has been cast out of his elf community because nobody wants to deal with him.

Here's a description from the original. Googling might come up with more......he's small because he's eaten a magic berry.

OK. New witch. This is for you Nancy. You want 'fem'...howzzis?

This witch sees herself as devastatingly attractive, witty and a perpetual ray of sunshine. In fact, she's unctous, bombastic, cloying, syrupy sweet, back-biting and cruel. She sees herself as stylish. In fact, she's over-dressed and over-bearing. She thinks she's warm and supportive, but really just gushy, flattering and patronizing while she probes for a person's weak points.

She is always in the midst of a swarm of butterflies. In reality, they are nasty little familiars, somewhere between a bat and a very fat mosquito. She might mumble darkly under her breath and point at one, whereupon it transforms and flys away on her errand.

She wears an artsy-fartsy braided belt festooned with pockets and pouches. Some contain simple everyday items like money and cosmetics, but most hold potions, powders, philtres, poisons, [an occasional panecea] notions, nostrums, vials of vile, balloons of bat breath, and other witchly tools.

When she enters a room, men become very interested in the wallpaper and children cringe behind mother. Flowers wilt as she passes. A meeting with Gloria should be interesting.

Thanks Ken and Holmes for the notes on Pessim. I'll download the new script, but it doesnt sound like he's a candidate for the 'boiler hat' unless he has a very volcanic temperment.

hee hee - me guste mucho...very funny - such a nice zaftig witch. She looks like she could belt out a tune or 2.

Thanks for the laugh - You've encouraged me to ignore any considerations towards practicality in design towards animating (I don't need much encouragement).

I still think the boiler hat could work for Pessim - it could be billowing out black smoke, slowly leaking ooze - doesn't have to be volcanic - just toxic wastey like. He needs to be a very depressing Pessim(istic) dude.

(I've been sick, sickly, sickening - so not much going on in my cage - but I still intend to scribble a witch or 2 or 3 - even if it's just fer meself)

After two glasses of wine, it's hard to shut her up! [and it's takes four glasses in you to take the chainsaw edge off her voice!

Then I've done my job well. Go for the outrageous. This is Oz. Practicality can come later [as modelers start twitching and dropping like flies.]

I'll start something on Pessim.

Scribble a witch or two and call us in the morning.

I gotta have my fun.

(Yes. They are my versions of Googly Goo & King Krewl after they went to Sweden for a sex change)

Nancy, you really must find an author of young-adult books to illustrate for. Your sketches have an unmistakable style and attitude that I bet 10-14 year old girls would love.

Nancy: How are the ladies coming?

I'm gathering my courage back up. I will devote tommorrow and thereafter to getting them out. Like I said in my other post - I will be using Christensen as inspiration.

Hey Nancy, check out this purse. It has all the right qualities for this movie. It's gaudy, politically incorrect and insanely expensive!
http://www.sabinesboutique.com/g181498bgbrfur.html

Yikes Holmes! - That is one very expensive, VERY Poochi UGLY purse. Very appropriate for Mme Barfsky. And it is on sale for $2,295.00. I'm hoping Martin might purchase it so I could use it as reference material.

So, today I tried to break thru my brain paralysis and doodled 2 new variations of the Witch.

I'm in a neurotic quandry as to direction. I need input as to which witch to develop further, modify, etc. It would be helpful to have opinions that indicate what people do and don't like, and what you would want to see changed, and why it doesn't or does work for you. I just don't seem to be able to guess. My tastes seem to run perpendicular to the planet.

I've re-uploaded my 1st 2 possibilities: Santoria Sally, the Voodoo Vixen from Hatey, and Prunefinetta from ...um...er...Santa Pruna, California. These laydiezz didn't seem to generate any comments - except for Holmes, who hinted I should find another author, and Martin who preferred Kelley's boiler hat witch - so I gathered they were a bust. Oddly enough, my husband liked these best, compared to my new efforts today. He especially liked the Fat broad.

So here in addition is today's attempt: Googly's Mom the Matchmaker. She's on a mission to get that lolly-gagging, no good son hitched. And she has her own eyeballs aimed at that charmer Krewel, so it would be handy to get that freeloading Googly out of the house. And she wants her clothes back. She could use a break.

The plain Jane version could be enhanced with dangly stuff (beetles, rats tails, eyeballs, chicken bones, and other assorted baubles). I didn't want to pursue this until I had some feedback. The lunchbox purse follows her everywhere, as a sidekick. And she does kick it. It could always be on the lookout for taste treats for m'lady. Her Bewitching Hitching Stick needs to be developed into something ickyily appropriate. The hat is supposed to be a scorpian tail adorned with a claw, and a variety of snakey wormy creatures (stuffed of course - remnants from some of her favorite lunches). Other food refuse could be added.

The Scorpian lady version would be an attempt to make her outfit more ...you guessed it...scorpian like. The bottom front part of her skirt is supposed to look like a quilted scorpian (didn't perfect this - so as it stands it might be visually confusing). Other embellishments could also be added.

Which ?

EDIT: Maybe the purse should really be a Poochie (instead of a bald eagle) ? That would be even more offensive to animal lovers such as myself.

Nancy: I just realized that I had not replied to this thread. I vote solidly for the 'Plain Jane Witch'. The purse is brilliant! It looks like a disgruntled, malevolant baby bird. If there a fault, it's that the purse is better than the witch herself. Does it open its mouth for her to put/take things? Or is there a regular purse-type opening? Personally, I'd vote for the mouth which would bite unauthorized hands. [but who'd be stupid enough to steal; from a witch?] Maybe it even bites the witch herself when it having a bad day.

The Scorpian version is very original. It would give Mark a challenge to rig the scales.

I like the character design as a character. But I'd prefer a more evil looking witch. Why aren't we doing that again? But I guess she could look pretty evil if she wanted to.
Are we making "The girls" too?

The Scorpian Witch is perfectly workable...as long as she gets that great purse!

So, if everyone's agreed, I'll start modeling the scorpion witch....

Yikes Ken! : You can start - but perhaps it's better to give me a chance to clean up the scorpion version a bit. All those images were for starting discussion to see which way to develop.



I was thinking the face would be evil-y textured (sickly color, bumps, pores,wrinkles, etc), and I was thinking her facial expressions would be what would make her more crazed, evil looking. However, I'll see if I can work up a more saggy face option that could be modeled to see if that's what people think might be better.

"The girls" were also candidates to be considered for the witch character. So if you're looking for more characters to model - my guess is they could turn into filler ladies of the court and/or be extras at the be-hitching scene?

Kelley: I think the Living Lunch Box Purse (LLBP) is suitable for any haut coutured witch. But there's gotta be a place for it in the script. Regardless, I'll do a quick side version of the purse. There is supposed to be a clasp purse type opening at the top - the birds head could have a long enough scrawny neck to turn around & deposit any hunting trophies inside or he could just swallow his catches & m'lady retrieves any half digested goodies for snacking by opening the top. And yeah - I definitely think there should be a loud squawking hand biting fight whenever the witch or anyone tries to steal the LLBP's booty. The LLBP also has claw feet that it can walk around on it's own, as well as be carried around by it's snake skin handle.



Martin: hmmm - Can you elaborate please as to which part you think might be too challenging or problematic? I was thinking that the # of hat segments can be less and I was thinking the hat would behave more rigid like a scorpion tail. I was also thinking the scorpion dress front was more like quilted fabric - in the fashion of a halloween costume, and the coloring/texturing would be high fashion trailer trash shabby chic - I was thinking that the skirt was more rigid a la insect exo-skeletonish.

However I wonder if it would be more interesting to make the skirt behave "scorpion like"? eg some of the ornamentation off the body segments would be articulated scorpian leg like. Bottom head segment would have eyes.

I should have some more design detail drawings manana.

But there is ! There is! It just walks along with her. It needs no place in the plot, it has no lines, it's just there. Just another thing that barely draws a glance in Oz, but will charm an audience.

My Favorite is still the version you did with the mechanical hat/smokestack thingie. Also, don't forget the bumps! Bumpy Man and the Witch need something in common so Scarecrow can make the connection that the Witch must have swallowed a "Bumpy Berry".

Sorry about taking so long. I have been struggling with stooopid physical dumbness.

Here's some refinements to the Flying Scorpion Witch (aka Googly's Mom) & the Living Lunch Box Purse. I added some more eyebags, and a rounder face for Mom to make her older. The textures on her skin and dress will convey enough bumpiness (as well as venomous insectiness) to be appropriate for shrinkberry reference.

Need to decide if Mom's outer skirt should be articulated rigid wing-like so she could fly in (carrying her purse of course), and just generally flit about. I like that idea.

Should the bottom detail on outer skirt/wing be modeled or hairy fringe ? How about a little of both.

Should hat have more or less segments ? I think somewhere in the middle.


Holmes: the mechanical hat with bumpy voodoo witch version was a joke - but I am open to the ridiculous. In my mind a mechanical hat doesn't quite fit. But I am beyond having any energy to protest if that's what others prefer.

To me, the Witch as a scorpion opens up some acting possibilities as she (& her purse) could certainly be interested in Capt'n Grasshopper for a nice pick-me-up snack.

Uh-huh. Yes. it would all have to be in script.

EDIT: added Bumpy Fat Kellichanized Witch

The witch keeps getting better. After seeing the bumpy skin, began to suspect that one could probably smell her before she entered a room, LLBP trotting along beside. What about deleting the metallic machine aspect, and just make a tall felt, or straw, hat with the sunglasses floating in space? No pushrods. The floating frames can carry all the eye expressions.

It requires nothing be added to the script.

A good buffoonish scramble would be when the Witch turns Bill into a grasshopper, and then tries to grab him. LLBP competes for the prize, they stumble into each other's way often enough that Bill escapes.

It needs only the added presence of LLBP.

Not a change, really. It would all rest on the animator's shoulders.

Nancy,

I am liking the witch and really like the scorpian tail hat. I think the segments should be large enough so that it stands out, which to me lends itself to the larger segments.

Great work.

So can I start modeling her face?....assuming no one else wants to.

er...Yup Ken - I would say modeling the face/head should keep you busy for about 3-4 minutes ?

Here's the final 2 choices: Ol'Blind Salley or Scorpion Salley - both have the same face, texture bumps - just different body shapes & costume getup. Both could have the Living Lunch Box Purse. Both could have the Sunglasses. Both could be blind.

PLEASE VOTE, PEOPLE...please. Blind Salley or Scorpion Salley?

Ol' Blind Salley could have really bad aim with her behitching stick - always bumping into things, people, accidently changing many minions/guards into toads, etc. She would have fatter legs, hands, fingers, fuller boobs, and be jigglier all around than Scorpian lady. The top of her hat could be decorated with fruits?, bats?, chicken parts?, feathers, flies...

Which is more fun/possibilities in acting ? easier to rig? easier to animate? More fun to animate?

(Maybe Ken should model them both? That should keep him busy until tomorrow?)

Most votes wins.

EDIT: (just to confuse issue, I uploaded a NOT blind Salley to show it has same face, with more witchy type hat) So far Ken is winning.

Scorpion Sally looks more witchy. That one gets my vote.

I'll vote for Scorpion Sally with glasses

Scorpion Sally

okey dokey folkey - the polls have closed -

Scorpion Lady wins.

A quick block out. Let me know changes.

She looks much too kind in her neutral state. She looks like she could be Trot's grandmother.

I dunno'. Neutral is 'just neutral'. That face could go nasty very easily.

I tend to agree. Granted, she's not diabolically ugly/evil to look at, but that' what we wanted right? Apparently she's Googlys grandmother. She can definitely look bad after rigging.
Think of it as character evil rather than natural evil.

Ken: She looks good the way she is - nothing a little hair and makeup can't cure to make her look her buggy best.

Things that could be changed are her lip shape - more pursed in the middle, thinning out to the edges. Brow line could be more pronounced - I'm thinking she would have a "unibrow" type look eventually after applying hair, makeup. Bags under eyes could be fuller - baggier. But like I said - this could all be handled by makeup.

Ummmm... her being Googly's Mom was... ummm ...my fantasy...but I think it fits into the story in my twisted brain...Have to convince Marty's twisted brain somehow...but it's not necessary for her existence that she be his Mom. She could still be a local moonlighting Gramma hired from Rent-a-Witch, Inc. down the street.

Sounds good. I'll get on it. Nice make up.

Hopefully that's the head done. (I gave her a blue rince. ) Moving on to her body.

A start on the purse. As you can see, the feathers around the face are being unco-operative.

Ken - hee hee - Zee purse is good - A couple of thoughts:

I like the unruliness of the feathers - they could even be more wild, more raggedy - I also think the LLBP could use some bare space around the eyes (no feathers) - sort of like a turkey vulture face, for a bit more definition (or could be shorter feathers around face). Not sure if there is a bare neck that retreats backward, hidden into the purse in rest mode, but can extend for hunting and pecking and fighting. Also could use a tail feather region. Can't tell from the image if it already exists.

My concern would be that it doesn't look enough like a purse - so perhaps its should be taller, more trapezoidal?, and that the opening, and handle should be wider and more obvious?

You're a crazy mad modeling machine.

I'll get on it tomorrow. Here's a progress of witchy. Alot of stuff still to do. From the drawings, it looks like you want her chest area to be of similar black material. However, my spidey senses are telling me that the balance of material/color is pretty good now as it is. And it would be a shame to cover up her breasts. What you think?

Also, I'm reading her hat tilted off to the side at the top too right?

more smiling hee hee's from me....I think she looks great.

I'm not sure about the tilted off to the side hat now - I like how you've done it - I think the hat can stay modeled in the center and can be animated to express moods as well as maybe have a slight dynamic jiggle? Also I'm not sure about the claws coming off the hat now - can we try it and see how it looks? I'm almost thinking it would be better without.

And I like what you've done for the top of the dress - I originally was thinking that those were folds of draped fabric on the top mimicing and balancing the insecty like segments - if the splines are there to pull it out to make rolls - it would be great - and yes we don't want to cover up her charming sagging boobs. They are like split saggy rolls.

I'm also thinking that her outer skirt can be a bit pouffier (but I also like how it looks now) and that the bottom of the outer skirt can be a hair fringe (not sure yet what kind of image to use but rectangularish can work for now)

She makes me smile. Your spidey coutourier talents are terrific. You have a guaranteed future at Widow World.

Yeah, I guess the hat can be shifted over with bones. I'll gladly leave the claws off the hat. I also think it might be abit too much stuff.....the moving hat should be enough. Hair fringe also sounds good.
I'll see about the folds....should be able to.