Design by John Neill

Designed by Robert (Kel) Kelley.

Robert Kelly is awesome. I really like his designs.

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I'm liking the No.1 Gloria...top row, left.

I've always seen Gloria as an airy-fairy sort of girl whose feet barely touch the floor when she moves. [affectionate and good-hearted, but...] I gave her the simple Grecian sheath dress as a counterpoint to the masses of flowers which are her passion and principle affectation. Every time she re-appears, the flowers are completely different.

But Gloria AS a flower? Now that's something!

The only issue with that is she is unanimously elected as Queen of Jinxland at the end. Shouldn't we at least portray her as competent enough to run a kingdom? She doesn't have to be a hard ass. Just intelligent enough so her ascension as queen isn't seen as some kind of joke.

I liked that one as well the best. But she would be difficult to work with. I've been trying to think more towards spline economic designs - for easier animating, less problems with rendering, penetration issues, definable faces that allow for animatable expression. The 2 Gloria examples placed in the composite of characters (prim, proper & eastern spirit) are examples of more practical, as well as reasonable storywise designs. The apple 1950's beauty contestant and Gilligan's Isle nitwit were not meant to be serious contenders. I hope youse know it was a joke? Maybe not.

Skirts, cloth, hair, lots of modeled detail all make for interesting models but also difficulty in animating and lots of cleanup later. Detail can be added with textures.

So I wonder again (not really expecting an answer as I asked in another thread): Should the character, set design pay attention to future problems? Or is it still Silver Back Gorilla bluff charge mode?

It is also my opinion that the design of Pon is dependant somewhat on the design of Gloria. They can either look compatible or totally incompatible - thus the reason for the love ritual - as Pon might fall in love with Gloria (being a poor gard'ner's son) but she might never fall in love with him unless hit by the accidental lightning bolt.

Holmes: Since when does intelligence play any part in who becomes ruler/president of a country?

Basically I'd say 'no', since we don't even know if there will be a future. Let the future designers look back at what we did today...and deal with it.

Design of Pon? I'd say it doesn't make any difference what he looks like. We know already that Gloria is hopelessly in love [and there's no rational accounting for the ways of a young girls heart.] The love-spell striking them at the end is superfluous. We need only spike the guns of Googly-Goo. Pon can be anything we want.

Are you familiar with the paintings of James Christiansen? Looking at the postings on your website, I see you two as kindred spirits.

Point taken
It would just be nice if the audience thinks "Yeah, Gloria would be an awesome ruler." instead of "Huh? Why is that bimbo running the country instead of Pon, who, according to the script, is the rightful ruler?"
Isn't Pon the actual heir to the throne?

The future problems I was thinking of were those of animating, rendering etc. Complexity in character design is not a problem for design or modeling. However...I too much prefer to throw reality out the window - much more fun, and so I say: if no one cares, why then, I won't either.

re: Pon - the text has Scarecrow wondering why Gloria would fall in love with Pon. That solves Holmes' s problem of "Why would Gloria be ruler instead of Pon?" - (other than Martin made a mistake) - it's because Pon's the ditz not Gloria. Currently he reminds me of a Peter Pan Pon.

Holmes: If Martin gives her dialog & behavior befitting an "awesome ruler", it's my opinion then it doesn't matter what she looks like. That is unless one believes that beautiful princessy airy fairy looking women can't be strong rulers. Perhaps she should look like Madeline Albright, or Golda Meir.

Again I have to ask - who's the target audience ? - us old little girls like the fairy princess myth - old little guys probably want her to look like Xena Princess Warrior

Kel - I was not familiar with James Christensen (I did a google) - Yes! I love some of his stuff (did not find much online) - not the biblical stuff - but the fantastical whimsy people are fabulously terrific - reminds me of Arcimboldo (not sure of spelling) - I actually have done a painting (watercolor) of a reclining nude with an artichoke hat, lying on a bed of tomatoes, scallions, with lemon slices for clouds - dreaming of ..., and I also have done a painted silk cloth doll with tree branches for arms, legs, and small tomatoes for boobs

Somehow Pon struck me as the airhead. Not Gloria.

Yeah, our James is a Mormon, and Biblical themes do insinuate themselves. But he is enormously inventive, and for someone like yourself who seems to exult in textures, frou-frous, furbelows, and the like, you need a good dose of Christensen. I discovered his book, "A Voyage of the Imagination' on the bookshelves when I was in China [of all places!]. Bought it instantly. I did a check of used copies on Amazon.com. Found one cheap. Bought it, and will send it to Martin. He can forward it to you.

I would consider Button Bright to be the most "air headed" of everyone. He's always getting lost! Pon and Gloria are ardent in their love for each other and they seem to be genuine and generally with it. Here's a description of Pon from the original (never got around to Gloria):

Nancy, Kel,
I see your point. Yes, Pon does seem like a poet/dreamer type. Not really interested in running a country. And I actually like the idea of a beautiful fairy princess as the ruler. And, yes, it would be up to Martin to give her dialog/personality befitting a woman who is not only innocent and idealistic, but also wise. So I guess I'm with you guys.

I like Prim and Proper Gloria best.

I think prim proper is a reasonable version -

However, I would like to attempt a more reasonable version of Gloria "Garden Variety". Gloria needs flowers, and vegetationy type things worked into her, as I think that would be more interesting.

She could also be worked into a Eastern, Persian-ish type princess, with lots of intricate flowing fabrics

I've been slow getting to these as I've been sick - but today is a good day & I'm getting some of my energy back (unfortunately the feistiness may come back too)

So is this the one you're thinking of Nancy?

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?act=a...st&id=33664

Yes that is the one I was thinking of - but you move too fast for me. Ok...ok...ok...more likely I move slower than anyone right now.

The complexity of that skirt design would probably be too taxing for animating? She has to be sitting, moving about. I believe that's in the script. Would it work better if a large skirt type was rigged, but not use cloth?

Her face detail, hairstyle needs thinking, along with defining the headdress and underskirt. I like the idea of making her look like a flower

I'm a top-down type. Concept first, then detail. And I always prefer to not go with my first thoughts.

I would like to see if I can come up with something that combines a variety of the Garden Variety example, with some Eastern (Persian) face elements (large dark sultry almond shape eyes) & eastern clothing - maybe harem pants would be easier animating & Christensenish elegant head gear.

And oh yeah - She's got to look like or remind one of flowers because she's the acting chairperson of the local garden club. I saw that in the script too.

In your own time and what ever it takes. As long as you have a side and front sketch at the end, I'm happy. I would think that the dress is abit too elaborate as you suggest.

Vote, opinions s'il vous plait, por favor. I started with Nimmie model. Her fingers, hands should probably be made shorter, and her arm proportions should be fixed, I suppose.

1) Shall we keep Nimmie face or make new face? New face has more almond shape, slanted eyes, for more exotic look, shorter distance between mouth and nose, wider, thinner lips. Nimmie's face is gorgeous. And she didn't get much air time in TWO, but we don't want Ken to get bored.

2) Outfit preference ? Fabrics shown as samples are presented only as examples. They are presented to show where detail can come from. I was trying to come up with reasonable designs for animating, but some might be too complex - even though they might look more interesting (to me)

Set A is more exotic, might be easier to animate because she's wearing harem pants.
Set B is more fairy princess like. Not sure if petal like overskirt should be modeled? or Hair?
Set C is more victorian, chaste. Might look more related to Trot (corkscrew curls)

This time we will wait until Mr. Holmes of Rodeo Drive has voted. We don't want him barfing. He's way too thin as it is.

1) I think a different face. It could be a modified Nimmie, but we'd still need a concept direction.

2) One of the trouser options.

Why do all the women always seem to be wearing a skirt or dress.

I like A3 the best.

I'[d go for "C". But I love the fabrics in A1.

Initially I thought A1 but I was distracted by the fabric.

I like A3!

If necessary a skirt or dress could be made to attach to it too methinks so that variations can be demonstrated in each Gloria scene. Anyone know the number of different scenes she's in?

Also... is there a marriage at the end of this movie?

Sorry. I really need to read the whole script.

I like the fabric from A1. But all the figures except C (which doesn't appeal to me) appear much too "Got It Goin' On" compared to her character sheet. She looks beautiful, self confident, seductive, alert, and smart. She doesn't look slightly air-headed, with a vacant smile and attentive gaze at all to me.
Should we change her character sheet? I'm willing to change it if y'all are. I'm glad you are designing her. You have made a flat chested 17 year old princess very appealing. Definitely not cliche in the CG art world. I don't think any of us guys would have given her quite the same treatment

I also like the way you use the foliage theme in some of the samples to give a visual cue to the connection Gloria shares with Pon (garden boy), because in the script nobody but Gloria seems to have the slightest idea why on earth she is attracted to him. The script explains it as a random act of the heart, but I don't buy it. I really appreciate your attempts to give them some kind of connection the audience can see and relate to.

I also wonder if Gloria should have a new more "Queenly" outfit for the final scene in the movie where she assumes the throne?

Given the style already outlined for the other characters I would have to go for C but I do like B3 and the material in B to keep the character 'light'. The darker material of A would make her seem 'heavier'.

Cheers

A4 for me. (Too many sweatpants mommas at the gym already).)

Amazing concepts ... My vote goes to A3

I don't think those are sweatpants. I think they are Persian belly dancing trousers ... but I could be mistaken.

You're both right - these are called harem pants (middle eastern origins) - but they could also be called Hot AND Sweaty Pants if the fabric is made transparent. They are still attractive even if the material is not transparent, and are made out of a silky, soft material.

Holmes: I just went with Nimmie's shape. She comes prepackaged flat chested, straight out of the box. This is probably more like you had in mind that some might do?

Click to view attachment

Not seriously suggesting that the pant material should be transparent. Just more fabric examples.

David, Kelley: fabrics are just examples and are still TBD - there are billions of options. Whatever is selected will be consistent with her look, and the other actors who's textures are also still tbd.

Holmes: IMO Gloria can still be perceived as airy heady, and prone to theatrics in her flowery harem-ish outfit. It will all depend on how she moves, and is animated. A lot will also depend on the voice actor's reading.

Click to view attachment

(Anybody still reading? Or are you still on the first image?)

So far it looks like most votes go to A3, or A type.

I prefer A4 (with the hair/petal skirt). I think it has a more of a fantasy look, and makes her look more like a flower. Maybe she wears the A4 skirt in the meeting with Pon in the garden flashback scene, and in the "crying in her bedroom" scene. In the "dragged away by witch scene" is seen without her skirt - A3? Not sure about the be-hitching scene (can't remember how she gets there)

The skirt in A4 will depend on the hair/emitter (eg like Mrs. Yoop tutu). Or it could be modeled for more animation/rigging control. We can start with A3 - and then try a hair/petal skirt - and yes, will be harder to animate/control.

As for additional outfit for the "coronation" (no wedding scene that I remember) - if I recall correctly- Gloria might have bought new clothes for the occasion, as everyone might dress up? But she could of course wear her skirt outfit. Can't remember if coronation happens immediately after the witch is shrunk, or some time passes. I believe Scarecrow is selected first by the crowd - who then abdicates to Gloria. Do we need a spiffy change in crown/headgear for Gloria, that Scarecrow places on her head?

Ken: I think this is enough detail for you for a new face? To me Nimmie's face look's younger, more vacant, but I think either face could work. Gloria's/Nimmie's body is the same - I can post some more detail later for the smaller hands, shorter fingers, as well as headdress if required? I'm scouting around currently for better flower references for on her outfit

Click to view attachment

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I'll see what I get using this and the Nimmie mesh to start.

Here's what came out. Still quite Nimmie-esque. Let me know if I missed something and if there are any other changes.

Ken, just my thoughts, but... Her eyes look a bit alien-ish. I understand the need for size, but the width (and offset), just worries me. I forget how much of this transfers from Nimmie...

Anyway, just my thought. I'm good with it if that's how it goes.

I keep wanting to write something, but I'm not sure what to say. I don't know if that's Gloria. I don't know if it isn't. I keep waiting for Nancy to say something.

Hi Ken -

Your skills amaze me.

It's not quite yet a full fledged belly-dancing Gloria face. I'm not sure if makeup, lashes, and closing of the lids would alleviate the "alienish" look.

The things that I notice that stand out for me are the slant of the eyes & the distance that the eyes are set apart. The models eyes appear wider set than the drawing, and less slanted, less almond shape. Modifying the eyes should help bring it closer to the drawing.

The width of the face of the model looks narrower - but might be ok once the eyes are changed. The nose width/shape is different as well. The model's nose, which is very pretty looks asian, and I like it. It might work as well, but I was trying to go for a more middle eastern/indian Catherine DeNeuve look. The lip shape is a little different as well but is pretty, and works.

I think the best thing would be to see how she looks after fixing the eyes and then we could probably tell better if she needs her face widened, nose, lips changed. I'm guessing they will work as is, as "pretty" comes in many flavors.

Looks great, Ken. Tho' I'll go with Nancy's eyes too.

Thanks guys. But don't judge the first revision! Suggestions are welcome though.

Nancy, I'm not seeing much difference in the lips and the sketch, but the other features have been modified as per requested. I wasn't sure where the eyes started/ended before due to the thickness of the eye liner. If you need front and sides, I'll post them later but I think we're getting closer. (I also scaled the eyes down abit so they aren't so googly looking....I find it difficult to get the right size of eyeball sometimes.)

Those eyelids are going to be a biach to rig.

Of course we won't judge the first rev! We'll judge them all!

What Nancy said made a lot of sense, and I could see the final a lot better. I really should just leave this in her hands.

Still, I'm getting the impression of at least her being cross-eyed. Forgetting the whites of the eyes, the iris and pupil look closer together than they should. ::Shrug:: Sorry, I'm not a pro at designing faces, so the best I can do is be vague.

She's already looking pretty. Very nice work Ken.



Mark and David always excell at those kind of challenges.

.

I'm not sure we know how they first met but I suspect it was love at first sight in the flower garden.
A chance meeting of the heart. That no one else can fathom it is a nice aspect too. (I like that)

While they may be different in many ways and have other interests they apparently have that common interest (flowers/gardening) at heart. Their love grows and blossoms from there. Ah... true love.

(I'll stop now before I make myself nausious)

Eye shape definitely better!...She might need a lifetime membership at the local Electrolysis Emporium for keeping those eyebrows in check. We might have to go with painted brows if hair brows turn out too Groucho Marxish.

Lips look good.

She does appear cross eyed - so the eyeballs are probably not pointing straight ahead? & the iris part of the eyeballs should be placed at the widest part of the eye opening - I believe that will help that cross-eyed look ... You might need to model the inside corner in order to get the eyeball to fit into socket ?

(Crosseyed might even be cute, as it would give her a less than perfect quality & perhaps be more relatable to young girls. But lets try for pretty for now as we can always make her cross eyed in animating)

Click image to see difference that changes could make:

Click to view attachment

I also liked your first nose better - more delicate, refined (I told ya yours was pretty) - either would work, but I think yours is prettier on her face. It would be great if you could revert the nose. With those changes - I think the face is done.

Click to view attachment

Rodney, Holmes: Pon & Gloria do meet in the garden. Have you looked at any of the other potential male suitors for Gloria in this movie ? Googly, Krewel, guards, minions, pessim, bumpy, scarecrow, Tinman, LLBP, Captn Bill. Unless we model some more candidates for her - I don't think she has much choice in Jinxland.

It's not a stretch that she would fall for Pon.

However, IF I were in her situation - I'd take my chances with kissing the TOAD.

Yet another interesting subplot.

Here's those changes. The eyes were always pointing forward. I'm including the model so you can get a proper idea of what she looks like.

PS Nancy, you have to ask yourself if the toad would have you!

Edit: Maybe her eyes need to go over more to match your image. But it's really leaving a gap in the inner corner of her eye.

Well, I don't know how much you modified the eyes, Ken, but it definitely looks better to me. Great work!

Ornrietta Toadette sez: Just put a bag over my head, zip my mouth shut, splash on some Eau de Swamp - and I'm irresistable. The flies buzzing about my head don't hurt either.

(ohhh pooey. I just revealed all my secret temptress tricks when out trolling for the Horny Toad)

For more info:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=263319
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Gloria looks good Ken - I tried futzing a bit with the iris, pupil size and eye shape some - but decided I like what you have better.

The one simple thing you might change is to make the tear group the same color as the lips for now (freaked me out with that black gunk in her eye).

FYI, asked my husband which he liked better and he said the smaller iris & pupil (as you have it) - but yet he said she looked more cross eyed (not significantly) - I like it as you have it as well.
Click to view attachment


Here's another reference for the shape of Glorias top and some potential ? for Flower applique detail
Click to view attachment

Buzzing flys around your head? Makes a change from cows I guess.

The top looks like it has potential. Would all those nurnies be modelled? I think the black is just a background, but Gloria shouldn't be in black.....just in case.

So, that's her face done. I'm off to get some more of the balloon guy done.

Yes, the black is just a background. Don't pay any attention to colors that I might show for now (you know me...4 zillion pattern/color choices comes later).

I was mainly trying to show the shoulder, halter top shape. And in addition, some potential for added flower "relief". At this point I'm not sure how much detailing should be modeled versus textured.

Would you like me to attempt to finish the clothing? (since you expressed you don't really like to do it).

I can take it to a certain point, and when I get into trouble (like in crap it up) - I'll call on you for assistance. (or you could redo it the way it should have been done in the first place ...)

And of course - don't expect it in any kind of record time...I am slow.. as the current rate of exchange is 1 Ken modeling minute = 30 Nancy modeling minutes.

What do you think? (BTW what's a bevel?...hee hee)

Knock yourself out! Feel free to modify the hands from any of the other models. If you want to do them that is.

ok , I've procrastinated enough...I've started finishing gloria - will probably post something manana.

finally knuckling under...still more to do.

Have to add hair, fabric folds in harem pants, adornments on outfit (will carry over theme from headdress), attach head to body, shrink hands, re-proportion arms.

(thanks Ken for those tips in the other thread - they got me motivated to do some modeling)

A Queen if ever there was one!