Clay model by Robert (Kel) Kelley

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We're very close on these guys. My Krewl is shorter, and less clown-looking, but apart from that, we're in the same ballpark. I'll get the finishes out tomorrow or Tuesday.

Are you modeling or still sketching? (your clay model is terrific)

Still at the sketch stage. I started modeling in Sculpey since I had not drawn for quite a while. [A:M does that to you] But as my drawing licks came back, I switched back to paper. I did make some maquettes of Cap'n Bill and Trot by modifying the Boneless Thom model that comes with A:M [boned version] 'Thought they might be useful for blocking out action...sort of a 3D animatic. I plan to do the same with Krewl and Googly-Goo to play with details of costume.

Tell me about it. I haven't really drawn, painted in over 5-10? years. I'm really liking getting back into it.
I am finding that sketching rough ideas on paper and then tweaking in photoshop is pretty fluid & painless. I am purposely leaving in the chicken scratches as I prefer the more natural feel/style.

I wish there was a way to get a deliberate, controlled natural chicken scratchey look in 3D. Must be some way. Some way that is, other than from my lazy modeling habits.

One would think. After all, if they can make fire, rain, dust, particle systems and sprites, what would be the big difficulty with a few chicken scratches?

Kelly,

Martin, of course, will have the last word on this, but at this stage of our project, I think maybe you may help us all be more productive in the long run if you stick with art design, concept sketches and set "blueprints" for now instead of moving ahead into modeling the characters.

I personally really like your character designs and your vision for this movie, but since we don't even have the story locked down, nor each character's psych profiles outlined, its very possible some of the designs may change a bit here and there. We have several artists on board who are very competent modelers, so I believe we can all pull together and knock out the characters, sets and props in a relatively short time once everything is designed and approved.

What I think might really help us is:
concept sketches of the characters that haven't been done yet, showing a bit of their personality.

modeling sheets (front, back and profile sketches) of each character in the default "T" pose (for humanoid) or a neutral pose (for other body types) .
- Captn Bill
- Capt'n Bill Grasshopper
- Trot
- the orc (if we are going to keep it in the story)
- a crow(s) - are they all going to be identical?
- Bumpy Man
-Pessim
- Several types of fish (if Tin Man is going to have his under water adventure in the river)
- King Krewl
- Googly Goo
- the witch
- Pon
- Gloria
- three or four versions of a King Krewl Guard
- three or four versions of a Jinxland woman and man (old, young, child)

concept sketches of each set
- cornfield set,
- canyon set with rope bridge and river
- waterfall set with large pool and a place where Scarecrow can be pulled out of the pool
- underwater set where Tin Man has his underwater adventure
- Bumpy Man's house and surrounding land
- the balloon rental place (is it in a village or just out by itself somewhere?)
- Capt'n Bills room in King Krewl's castle
- Trot's room in king Krewl's castle
- Scarecrow's room in king Krewl's castle
- Gloria's suite in king Krewl's castle
- the witch's cottage
- the roads from the Jinxland castle to the witch's cottage (needs bushes and rocks and things for Pon, Scarecrow and Trot to hide behind when following Gloria to the witch's cottage)
- the hill where the love ritual/bonfire will be. (where will each character be placed? Where will guards be stationed? How many guards will we have? How can everything be placed so Pon and Trot can believably carry out their plan to delay the ceremony while eluding the guards?)
- King Krewl's throne room needs to accommodate enough people so it looks like the whole Jinxland village is packed in there at the end, along with guards etc.

Then "blueprints" of each set. Overhead views which show the locations of each element, so a modeler can import it as a "top view" rotoscope and quickly position elements in the appropriate places.

Anyone have any other ideas of how we may benefit most from this stage of the project?

All of the designs, models, storyboards are inspirational thus far.
Beautiful stuff.



I'm not sure if Will Sutton will share his technique but he was getting some 'chicken scratch' or perhaps more appropriately 'sketchy' effect in his 'Ogre' project. As far as I know he's still working on the project. He might not want to part with the technique until his project is released but... you can always ask.

There is something I really like about the simpicity of the modified Thom models.
Its almost like it would take the pressure off of animating with more final looking models or proxy.
Anyone else see what I mean?

If people just dive in and animate for fun it often maintains the spontanuity that might otherwise get lost.

I like your work Kelly.



Missed your post Holmes while I was typing mine.

I'm kind of floating around a bit myself here so I'm interested in these aspects. My concern is mostly where the characters style isn't yet locked down. Where we've got any of them locked down we can really dig into their personality.
For some things to progress (color study?) the script needs to be more finalized.

I've got an empty sketchbook set aside for the sole purpose of exploring 'Scarecrow of Oz'.
Following the pattern already laid out by Alain, Nancy and Kelly I'd like to join in too.



Brainstorming seems to be the best place to spend time.
Here is where ideas get rejected, accepted, modified and refined.

If the idea gets Martins stamp of approval it can move on to the next stage right?

I think using your list is an excellent way to start: with concept sketches fleshing out the potential choices for cast design, set design as the story, character development, script is still be fleshed out.

I would only suggest that it's a bit premature to launch into T poses unless the character design has already been decided upon (has it?) or of course, unless the person doing the character feels like doing T poses. Couldn't hurt, but might be effort wasted.

I also think it's a good idea to decide now if the goal is to go for easier animating (as hinted to by Martin in a different thread when saying something about "dialog being easier to animate than action") or even easier rendering time?

Should we be going for less complicated models, less spline heavy sets, less effects, less hair, less etc etc ? Or not worry about that? Full throttle ahead - dam the torpedos?

Yes I had tried something a long time ago - when TWO was just a twinkle in Martin's eyes, prior to Will Sutton trying. I was thinking more in terms of getting sketchy, scratchy outlines as well (like someone else was working on: eg Marcel Bricman with his sumi style?) - chicken scratches might be simulated with running rendered imagery thru a post processing filter of sorts

http://www.intercad-inc.com/nancy/YoopSketch.htm

And a thread is derailed agin. (I don't seem to be able to learn)

There's a darktree material call sketch shader. If you uploaded the materials folder from svn, you should have it. Here's 2 images, with and without toon render on.

Thanks Mark for pointing that out.

The problem that I find with materials is that they look too procedural. Just like hand crafted, irregular human touch to me is usually most often more appealing than manufactured. It's a personal taste issue.

In a similar way that's probably the same reason why I prefer unique unknown original one-of's art, rather than a "name" brand recognized style of imagery - it all looks the same - can't tell who the artist is. I get bored with it.

Kel has a neat style. And for me, that's a good thing.

Well, if you want a stylized artistic look, then you'll just have to do it yourself.

Holmes: I realize full well that it's early days here and nothing is ready for 'final'. The models of Trot and Cap'n Bill were for my own experimentation and not a serious suggestion for the film. [you can see how crude they are compared to my own sketches of them] As far as rooms and balloons, and other such objects, I can model them as fast as I can draw, and work out details as I go. If they're usable, fine. If not, fine again. They may end up in one of my projects.

I've spent an age in commercial art and graphics. I know that the starting point on a project like this is always a far cry from what is produced at the end. I just figure that the more I throw out on the table, the more we have to choose from.

Yup - could handtrace frame by frame for outlines or

How could I forget ? - Fluffy movie - printed out on paper and then filmed

http://www.hash.com/amfilms/search/entry.php?entry=659

Googly-Goo. At last. I originally saw him as so rich that gems and coins kept spilling from his pockets. His coterie of little minions run around retreiving them, to the distress of King Krewl who hopes that the items will roll under a chair, or some such, and lie unnoticed until he, in his avarice, can collect them. The minions are arrogant, self-important, egotistical little toadies who hover about trying to attract Googly-Goo's attention to their special service. They jostle and trip each other behind his back. When it gets to be too much, he thumps the floor with his walking staff, which puts them on notice. The dangling gems became another way of displaying wealth, and perhaps they can be the objects that keep falling off. If they were seperate Objects, with a 'dangle' Action, he could be in constant motion.

great drawings, characters Kelley - both Googly & Krewel

Thanks, Nancy. Googly-Goo was the most fun of all so far, followed by Krewl.

Even if we don't use Kel's Googly-Goo for the movie, it might be a fun exercise to build it? Anybody want to?

Sure. I could use a break from animation. I've other things to do first though.

PS To all modellers.....can we keep the mesh as simple as possible. Nimmie with all the splines coming out of her mouth took much longer to rig/facially pose.

Not a problem. It can be kinda tricky though keeping the patch count down while trying to ensure there are enough splines to animate effectively.
Would you like to upload a base head mesh we can modify for different characters? Otherwise, I'll just post wireframe pics you can look at.

A guide could be Ku Klip. He was fun to pose. Also, lets keep away from the extra long forearms in this movie!

Sounds good to me! I already have the head mesh for Krewl roughed out, so I'll use Ku Klip for the next model.
I'll be sure to try keep the arms somewhat proportionate.

About two thirds of the way through Googly Goo. I like to color them and the reasoning for the colors is:

Royal Blue Clothes.....he wants to be King!

Red Gloves because he most likely has/will have blood on his hands to get what he wants.

I'm unsure about the belt....I might just stick a buckle in the middle.

Looking good. Face is good

Kelley should really be commenting - but I sure liked the exaggerated sleeves, furbelows in the drawings. I wondered about them being a problem to animate. Can the sleeves get pouffier? (seems to be the word of the day for me). Also can the furbelows get furbellowedier?

My take on this guy is that he is supposed to be narcissitic slimeball, as well as a fashionista. Those sleeves helped to make him unique.

Does he have a slight smile? hard to tell.

I preferred the sashy-ier looser type belt in 1 of the drawings (the one with KK in an overcoat). But what ya got will work.

I also preferred the slight pot belly look in the first drawing (where he's holding the wine).

Ken: Googly-Goo is looking good. Looking at the drawings again, I don't think there's a belt there, but don't let that stop you. Just make it fancy-in-excess. Draw the points of the shoes 'way out. I wouldn't make the curls too, too smooth. Same with his goatee when you get to it. It's the ultimate in waxed moustache/goatee art, but the envelope has been pushed a bit too far.

Nancy: Yes, he is. In spades. [and those are his more endearing qualities.]

I'm attaching two scans from James Christensen. I soaked my head in a lot of Christensen when I started these drawings. Look at all the shapes in the sleeves. Should be a piece o'cake to make a spline and rotate it, then tweak. Change the fabric often. Note the transition between elbow and wrist...and the flounces and furbelows [or are they pouffs?] at the knee. And 'dangles' Lots of dangles. They could be made as seperate objects, each with an action, and translated to G-G. That way, we only have to make him walk and the dangles will go on autopilot. [Nancy: your copy should be arriving here soon]

Ken: [just re-looked at your thread] Let me stress Christensen again. Rather than a solid blue for his clothes, go for broke. I've been collecting fabric textures for the last few weeks. I can send along bunches of stuff.

Ack! I just ordered and have already received from Amazon "The Art of James Christensen -A Journey of the Imagination" - of which I am absolutely gobsmacked over. It is my intention to use his style as inspiration for the witch and Gloria definitely and Trot (somewhat, but less so - since she is supposed to be more realish). There are so many of his characters in there which could also serve as inspiration for bumpy, pessim, pon, etc...

I definitely think Christensen like imagery all around (even in the sets, props) would be stunning and jaw dropping. It will be a challenge to not copy. The colors, textures, shapes, imagination are incredible.

I was thinking you were sending the copy to Martin...Gulp.

I was thinking texturing will come after rigging. We'll have to moderate the complexity of the models for the sake of animating complexity. A lot of the ornateness can come from the textures.

Nancy: No problem. I considered sending it through Martin since a girl can't be too careful about who she gives out her address to in these madcap internet encounters. In any event, it's impossible to have too many copies floating about. I will send this copy to Martin and he can confer it upon whomever he thinks might most benefit from it.

Yeah, these are only colored groups for inspiration. Texturing comes after rigging is finished....and that will be someone elses' job to go mad on. I'll look into those modeling suggestions (I was using the first image mostly so missed the cuffs).

Hear! Hear! I haven't studied his work but its clear that texturing in the Christensen style will really make SO a joy to watch.
It also helps to get us a bit further away from the standard CG-look which is good as it highlights what can be done with A:M's renderer. (I'd guess it'll helps us get away from materials and longer rendering times too.)

I'm itching to join in the fun but realworld studies and moving to Japan are where my attention is at the moment.
I am trying to keep up (I'm especially looking forward to the new updates on the script).

Don't have this movie complete too quickly okay?
I blinked and Ken has Googly-Goo almost finished already!

You blink again Rodney? Almost done....

I'm thinking this character should be King Krewl and the other character is a better Googly-Goo.

Yikes! Are you speedy or what? He's looking very good.

I'll be SO's official 'blinker' if you can keep up that pace.

Lookin good Ken!
Can we get front and side views?

Thanks! Here you go.

From my observation - (and Kelley should be answering) - if I compare the drawings and the model - here are the discrepancies that I notice:

Skirt length (should be longer), belt (no belt - but ruffles? on side), poofyness of sleeves (need to be BIG, arm parts maybe should look like they are shirt), nose shape (a little less indent), mouth should probably be higher, hat brim (wider), placement of buttons (moved to the sides), gloves (no ruffles, wider cuffs) , ruffles on legs (need to be wider), cuffs on shoes (should be wider). The colors distracted me from seeing the differences so I made it BW. I added the extra detail on hat, as well as his earring.

EDIT: I also notice that his legs in the drawing are thinner.

To me size, shape makes a difference. It's a great modeling job (and boy am I envious of your ability) but it looks like a different character to me. Don't know how others feel about it.


Martin: Can you elaborate as to what makes you feel that this character should be the King ?

Why should Gloria not like this guy? He doesn't look that old - in fact, he looks pretty competent (like a king). He could be a great "Snidely Whiplash" type king.

The other fat, overdressed, pompous character would be much more disagreeable as a love interest for Gloria

I definitely get your point about not looking old. More wrinkles in his face could help fix that ? He looks about 40ish? 50ish? now to me.

I also think a "Snidely Whiplash" is a disagreeable love interest.

Gloria will look too young for either of them - she could be 17-18ish looking. She wouldn't like him because he's slimy and self absorbed.

The King is also supposed to be slimyish? no? After all he's selling his niece for profit.

Both could work - sorta - I guess - but this guy would need redesign to be King (ditch the hat?, add crown, robe?)

Lookin' good, Ken. But I'll go with Nancy's comments. Skinnier legs. Most important of all is massive sleeves. Lots of buttons and foofaraw, dangly things. He's nothing if not a fop. I have no problems with the face, though I see him as pinch-nosed, sunken cheeked, drawn looking...as a foil to the pudgey King. [or, vice-versa]

The thing is, with these two characters, is that it would be difficult to over-do the clothing. Go for over-the-top. We can always scale back later. But big cuffs. Balloon sleeves. Dangles 'til hell won't have it. This is a royal court, and courtiers always evolve exaggerated style.

And Gloria? A fat, ruthless, venal butterball versus a tall, skinny, aging, self-centered fop? Hmmmmmm. Difficult choice. 'Could account for her interest in Pon. She'd not be the first girl who married to get out of the house.

Comparing Goo and Krewl from the script, Goo is without a doubt the stronger man. He is as rich as the king, if not richer. He is vain, self-absorbed, intelligent, ruthless and over confident.
Krewl is insecure, stupid, and moody. He obviously does not deserver to be king. Any wealth he has was stolen from Pon. (Pon's inheritance).
Both are pompous arses.

My impression is that Goo wants Gloria mostly for the power she represents. If he marries her, he becomes prince (heir to the throne) and will undoubtedly begin plotting to kill the king and he will no doubt succeed. Krewl also wants power, but he also wants riches. He is in love with gold and jewels and is too stupid to get those things on his own, so he allies himself with Goo, who was intelligent and ruthless enough to amass great wealth.

Which character looks more self-absorbed, intelligent, ruthless and over confident?
Which character looks more insecure, stupid and moody?


.... another interpretation would be that that Goo is simply a lecherous rich old man who wants a sweet young thang.

Which character looks more self-absorbed, intelligent, ruthless and over confident? IMO Skinny Fop
Which character looks more insecure, stupid and moody? IMO Butterball Boy

Unless we get side/front views of the characters, there's always going to be a little difference in the transition to 3D. Even then, it's not always possible.

Not all the images of Goo look the same, but I can deal with most of the changes. However, bigger sleeves/shoulder pad things are going to be a right PITA to rig and animate. Then all these dangly things need rigging with dynamics and probably cloth sims too.

I feel your pain Ken. I think what we might be going for is more of the "spirit" of the drawings - an emotional hit. That's what I've been going for anyway - whether its right or not.
Kelly and Nancy both appear to be in the land of "Christianson" - over-the-top, highly stylized, oh-my-god fashions, with unmistakable personalities.
Huge poufy sleeves at the shoulders might be better done with smartskin. Smartskin would definitely work better than SimCloth. Don't know if it would work better than dynamic constraints or not.

I appreciate that. And in an ideal world, I'd be all for extravagance.....or maybe not.

It's fun to think about, but what isn't fun is some poor sod having to wait around while all those dynamics/cloth get calculated and baked.
Then there's the aspect of whether all these moving things will destract from the character animation. In particular the jewels hanging down from the hat covering his face! I'll implement the changes (not that one though) and we'll see where we are from there.

I'm assuming the cloth part will probably be me, unless someone else really has a burning urge to do it. Based on past experience, I feel pretty confident in saying the only place where cloth would work for Goo is in the skirt (in Kelly's drawings).

Maybe it would help if you thing of Goo as a flaming Queen. He is all about bling, a fashionista - like a gaudy chandelier with a face. Goo wouldn't be caught dead in those shoes you have him in. They are much too dowdy. Goo would have only the most fashionable shoes. He would be saying, "look at my shoes, aren't you impressed? Everyone should be as stylish as me." "My hat is made only of the finest exotic silk. My gloves are the finest leather made from baby calves." All the dangly bits are really bits of jewelry. He loves jewelry. He could probably get away with a few earrings.

I don't know for sure, but maybe you can give the "Impression" of gaudy haute couture without making the TD hate you Anyway, good luck. I know how hard it is to balance pragmatism and idealism.

Holmes: Right on! Right on! Right on!

Updated with most of the suggestions. I don't know how to make the beard curl up sharply. Robert: Keep or discard the belt?

A:M Locks of Hair method still works right?

If not useful here... it might be useful elsewhere as there are a lot more girly-types in this film.
Come to think of it that might work well with a lot o' the guys too.

Keep it. How about some pockets and pouches dangling from it? And extend the sleeves all the way to the wrist. That way we can add more fabric textures. Is the beard done using the Hair material?