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NancyGormezano
Ummm ...

1) how do I get the neck control bone to show? (don't want to use neck 1, 2,3 - yet). Something is turning off it's visibility in the chor, action when I turn visibility on in the model

I think? I would like to be able to move the neck (with head to follow as is).

I realize you can use the head bone, but it's kind of tricky (confuses my widdle brain) using the head manual control to control both the neck & head

2) Also I tried FK for front legs (after turning off Auto shoulder, and not turning off auto shoulder) - very twitchy - impossible to control arms/front legs in FK. I'm wanting to use the front legs, feet sort of like arms, hands.

He will be dancing ya know - would like to be able to simulate/suggest expressive type hand movement. I think there may be some weighting issues? in hands - get funny dimpling in IK mode even. It may be too late - given the spline design of the model for "hand, arm" like movement?

Thanks RIGGING Gods.
mtpeak2
You can't use the auto shoulders when you are in FK mode.

I'm not sure about the problem you are having the visibility of the neck controller bone. Check the hide poses in the user properties/pose slider window in action and make sure the show geometry bone pose is turn off.
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(mtpeak2 @ Aug 20 2007, 10:40 AM) *
You can't use the auto shoulders when you are in FK mode.

I'm not sure about the problem you are having the visibility of the neck controller bone. Check the hide poses in the user properties/pose slider window in action and make sure the show geometry bone pose is turn off.


Thanks Mark

not trying to use auto shoulders - I was trying to turn it off (The model now has it's default as on). Doesn't matter when I turn it off - still can't control the front legs - goes crazy.

the show geometry bones is off
mtpeak2
I'm looking at the model now, there is no usable neck controller, this is automated.

There seems to be a constraint problem in FK mode. I can't seem to track it down. It appears that an IK constraint is not being turned off while in FK. The rear legs seem to work ok. I'll keep looking.
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(mtpeak2 @ Aug 20 2007, 12:00 PM) *
I'm looking at the model now, there is no usable neck controller, this is automated.

The neck controller bone wouldn't work maybe (right above head manual control) ?

NancyGormezano
double post
itsjustme
There isn't a neck control, Nancy. It is an IK neck control that uses the head controller to move it, like a tail. As for the FK front legs, I can take a look at it late tonight if Mark hasn't figured it out by then.
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(itsjustme @ Aug 20 2007, 02:06 PM) *
There isn't a neck control, Nancy. It is an IK neck control that uses the head controller to move it, like a tail. As for the FK front legs, I can take a look at it late tonight if Mark hasn't figured it out by then.

Thanks to both of you -

But please, if the neck control turns out to be too much of a hassle - don't bother - I see the IK neck control on/off pose - and when I turned it off, the neck 1, 2, 3 bones showed up - but by then it was too difficult to redo the head motion (ok ...more like I was too lazy). I can try and see how it works using the IK off from the start.

I can make do with what's there (and it is very nice what's there). This character has such a minor role, it may not be worth it, if there isn't any easy solution.
itsjustme
Okay, I tracked down the front leg FK problem...I had parented the bones wrong. I fixed that, but I'll have to take a look at putting in an FK option for the neck tomorrow. I've run out of time for today.

Hope that helps, Nancy.
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(itsjustme @ Aug 21 2007, 06:49 AM) *
Okay, I tracked down the front leg FK problem...I had parented the bones wrong. I fixed that, but I'll have to take a look at putting in an FK option for the neck tomorrow.

Thanks David - works like a charm. I also notice that the auto shoulder works in FK as well. Great! And that it also can be turned off. Also great!

As for the neck thing - It looks to me like there already is FK for the neck - when I turn off IK neck (rig components/torso head neck constraints folder) - the neck 1, 2,3 bones turn up - they just don't become visible - but since they get key frames, they become accessible. So that is useable.

So REALLY please don't go to a lot of trouble - but if you can EASILY put in a neck base controller (similar to the tail base controller) and doesn't mess up existing animations (mine, gulp) - where it is a parent of neck 1,2,3 and don't have to switch to FK for the neck - that way could leave the head controller bone to behave the way it does (also similar to the tail controller) that would do it. But otherwise please, please, please PLEASE don't bother. I (us) all can do what we need to do as it is. Very elegant.

And btw, I just figured out how the neck squetch works (always thought it didn't do anything) - very WONDERFUL - very easy. (very DUH on me).
itsjustme
QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 21 2007, 12:54 PM) *
Thanks David - works like a charm. I also notice that the auto shoulder works in FK as well. Great! And that it also can be turned off. Also great!


Hmmm, I don't remember that behavior...I'll double-check it late tonight.

QUOTE
As for the neck thing - It looks to me like there already is FK for the neck - when I turn off IK neck (rig components/torso head neck constraints folder) - the neck 1, 2,3 bones turn up - they just don't become visible - but since they get key frames, they become accessible. So that is useable.


I'll double check that as well...it might cause some problems as-is. It might not, but I'd feel better checking it.

QUOTE
So REALLY please don't go to a lot of trouble - but if you can EASILY put in a neck base controller (similar to the tail base controller) and doesn't mess up existing animations (mine, gulp) - where it is a parent of neck 1,2,3 and don't have to switch to FK for the neck - that way could leave the head controller bone to behave the way it does (also similar to the tail controller) that would do it. But otherwise please, please, please PLEASE don't bother. I (us) all can do what we need to do as it is. Very elegant.


I'll do some assessing tonight...I don't think what I'm thinking of doing would affect your animation though, Nancy.

QUOTE
And btw, I just figured out how the neck squetch works (always thought it didn't do anything) - very WONDERFUL - very easy. (very DUH on me).


It does work differently than the rest of the squetch controls...except the auto spine squetch, so it might not be obvious. It helps some with the Hippogyraf.
itsjustme
QUOTE(itsjustme @ Aug 21 2007, 03:10 PM) *
QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 21 2007, 12:54 PM) *
Thanks David - works like a charm. I also notice that the auto shoulder works in FK as well. Great! And that it also can be turned off. Also great!


Hmmm, I don't remember that behavior...I'll double-check it late tonight.


I checked the auto shoulders and hips...it's the way it should be, which means that if you turn off the IK legs, you will get a circularity of constraints in there that will make it act unpredictably. So, I wouldn't recommend using the auto shoulders and hips in FK...so they are strictly IK.

QUOTE(itsjustme @ Aug 21 2007, 03:10 PM) *
QUOTE
As for the neck thing - It looks to me like there already is FK for the neck - when I turn off IK neck (rig components/torso head neck constraints folder) - the neck 1, 2,3 bones turn up - they just don't become visible - but since they get key frames, they become accessible. So that is useable.


I'll double check that as well...it might cause some problems as-is. It might not, but I'd feel better checking it.


It's possible to manipulate those individual neck bones, but I wouldn't. I could make a quick and dirty FK for the neck, but, I'm thinking it would be better to come up with less of a hack. I only had time this evening to correct some CP Weighting in the neck and chest, I'll roll the neck problem around a little and see if I can get something in there tomorrow night, Nancy.
mtpeak2
Are you looking for a control bone for the neck, like the chest controller? Or the FK bone setup to manipulate each neck bone manually?
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(mtpeak2 @ Aug 26 2007, 11:30 AM) *
Are you looking for a control bone for the neck, like the chest controller? Or the FK bone setup to manipulate each neck bone manually?

Hi Mark - I just checked out the changes for the neck - neato - and it looks like David's changes have made it possible to do both -

As for me - I can see that I would get into trouble manipulating neck 1, 2, 3, instead of or as well as the neck fk1, fk2, fk3 bones. All 6 bones show up when go into FK mode. Perhaps the neck 1, 2, 3 bones shouldn't show up ?

It seemed to me (in the short time that I played with it) that if I only used the neckFK bones (in FK mode of course), it was more in line of what I had in mind, and flexible enough for me. Very nice. Don't know what others might want in the general case for the quad rig.

I also think the IK neck mode works well too...and I've learned how to use it. And I like it. I now see myself using that primarily. The Fk mode would be used for getting a different neck shape and for easier isolation of the head from the neck. Looks to me one can do that with the FK bones the way it's set up.

Not sure about switching IK/FK modes mid scene tho - I would probably cut away if I needed to.

I hope youse guyzzz are doing this for yer selfers as well - cause I am happy with the way it is. Thanks so much to both of you.

mtpeak2
I was wondering if a neck control bone would work for you in IK. This would be a bone like the chest controller, so you wouldn't have to translate the head_manual_control.
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(mtpeak2 @ Aug 26 2007, 12:41 PM) *
I was wondering if a neck control bone would work for you in IK. This would be a bone like the chest controller, so you wouldn't have to translate the head_manual_control.

heh heh.

ummm...don't know..not sure I understand what/how it would work - but it sounds good. BUT NOT if it would mess up any existing animation that I've done so far.

It also seems that the new neck fk1 bone works like that? or am I mistaken?
mtpeak2
I'm not sure, I'll have to take a look.
itsjustme
QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 26 2007, 02:11 PM) *
Perhaps the neck 1, 2, 3 bones shouldn't show up ?


I probably left those bones unhidden in the Pose, I'll correct it tonight.

QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 26 2007, 02:11 PM) *
I hope youse guyzzz are doing this for yer selfers as well - cause I am happy with the way it is. Thanks so much to both of you.


As things are used, and people ask for additional things (or modifications), those are generally added to the installation rigs...unless they are character specific. The FK neck setup will go into the Quad rig installations once it gets completely ironed out.

QUOTE(mtpeak2 @ Aug 26 2007, 02:41 PM) *
I was wondering if a neck control bone would work for you in IK. This would be a bone like the chest controller, so you wouldn't have to translate the head_manual_control.


I'll add that tonight as well. I've also got one more constraint for the head controller that I'm going to put in.



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EDIT
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QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 26 2007, 04:13 PM) *
QUOTE(mtpeak2 @ Aug 26 2007, 12:41 PM) *
I was wondering if a neck control bone would work for you in IK. This would be a bone like the chest controller, so you wouldn't have to translate the head_manual_control.

heh heh.

ummm...don't know..not sure I understand what/how it would work - but it sounds good. BUT NOT if it would mess up any existing animation that I've done so far.

It also seems that the new neck fk1 bone works like that? or am I mistaken?


Yes, the "neck1_FK" bone works like that, but it is FK only...I think Mark was suggesting the same kind of thing should be added to IK.
itsjustme
Okay, now I think the Hippogyraf's neck is done...barring anything wrong with the present version being found. I ended up deleting the "FK" neck bones because they aren't necessary now. The IK stays on all the time, but you can do some FK things still. There are two new Poses for hiding and unhiding bones in the "Animation_Controls/HEAD/NECK" folder...one to unhide the individual neck bones and the other to hide the "neck_base_control" bone.

Give that a spin, Nancy. I'm pretty sure it's going to be the one. If there's a problem, let me know and I'll do some more thinking. If it works out, it will probably be added to the spines in the installation versions as well...it's simple and it appears to be rock solid.
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(itsjustme @ Aug 27 2007, 06:34 AM) *
Okay, now I think the Hippogyraf's neck is done...barring anything wrong with the present version being found.


Very very nice EASY flexible control ... now possible to do all sorts of wicked things...a yoga type neck roll up as well as dragon/serpent like movements with his neck - Yup, step 1 of the MAKE DRAGON button process complete.

I tried him out briefly with previous animations that I'd done, and I didn't notice anything messed up. Yes! My mess is still there.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Hmmmm...makes me think that this kind of setup could be used for a smooth bendy type ARM for 2 legged creatures ? 3 bones for the arm, with a control bone, and a hand bone - I AM NOT suggesting any changes - just future fodder for thought.
itsjustme
QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 27 2007, 01:05 PM) *
EDIT: Hmmmm...makes me think that this kind of setup could be used for a smooth bendy type ARM for 2 legged creatures ? 3 bones for the arm, with a control bone, and a hand bone - I AM NOT suggesting any changes - just future fodder for thought.



That's already in there, Nancy...a little different than what you're suggesting, but possible with the present setup. The forearms, biceps, thighs and calves were all subdivided into four sections when the limb bowing was put in. The only TWO character with that setup in it is Green_Monkey_Woot, I believe (I don't remember installing it anywhere else). If you go to the Wiki page using the link in my signature, you will find a link to an example video of how it works.

-----------------------
EDIT
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Here is a direct link to the example video.
NancyGormezano
QUOTE(itsjustme @ Aug 27 2007, 01:58 PM) *
QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 27 2007, 01:05 PM) *
EDIT: Hmmmm...makes me think that this kind of setup could be used for a smooth bendy type ARM for 2 legged creatures ? 3 bones for the arm, with a control bone, and a hand bone - I AM NOT suggesting any changes - just future fodder for thought.



That's already in there, Nancy...a little different than what you're suggesting, but possible with the present setup. The forearms, biceps, thighs and calves were all subdivided into four sections when the limb bowing was put in. The only TWO character with that setup in it is Green_Monkey_Woot, I believe (I don't remember installing it anywhere else). If you go to the Wiki page using the link in my signature, you will find a link to an example video of how it works.

-----------------------
EDIT
-----------------------

Here is a direct link to the example video.


Interesting - I only watched the video just briefly. My immediate impression was I think I like it better with the "neck type" setup as the bowing is automatic, And would be able to move the arm using the hand.

But of course, I would have to play with current Monkey boy some to get a feel for the current setup (which I'm sure is terrific too). I have not had the opportunity yet to really animate him.
itsjustme
QUOTE(NancyGormezano @ Aug 27 2007, 04:53 PM) *
Interesting - I only watched the video just briefly. My immediate impression was I think I like it better with the "neck type" setup as the bowing is automatic, And would be able to move the arm using the hand.

But of course, I would have to play with current Monkey boy some to get a feel for the current setup (which I'm sure is terrific too). I have not had the opportunity yet to really animate him.


The limb bowing works pretty well, but it's something to think about, Nancy. I'll roll it around in my head a little, maybe it can get better.
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