Hi!

Okay, so I've gotten a start on the lighting of my assigned scenes. The old set had to be replaced with the newer one, so that's taken up most of my time.

However, I've started a rough light rig that renders pretty fast (I'd say around 10-15 min), and I've played around with composition with 2_08_30 and 32. How does the composition look? I was trying to help portray confusion and anger

How could the lighting itself be improved

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Also, we need to see what's outside as well. I suggested a 360-degree matte. I also think it would be good if there was a storm outside (which could be approaching in the exterior scenes for some forshadowing), Except it could be clear on the horizon and let sunlight through, this would definately add a dramatic look.

There ya go!

Lee

Here's one more:

2-08-29

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There's a camera move in this one--how much can I mess around with that?

Render time: 3:45, granted there isn't very much hair in this scene. Still, I'm a little impressed with myself.

Any comments?

Lee

I like your use of the sun.

Update:

I decided that since there was going to be a storm in this scene (at least, I haven't heard otherwise) that I would change the lighting. So here are the last two scenes with a little bit darker shadows (render times still around 5 minutes).

2_08_29

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2_08_30

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Also, thanks to the comments of Ken and Yves over in the rain thread, I've added some clutter, here's some of it at the entrance (Chopfyt stole Indy's hat)

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Before I can really call these done I'm going to make a "sky-box" out of Mark's exterior scene and add rain.

Thanks for lookin'!

Lee

Looks much better. Though I'd say more curtains and clutter. Give it a woman's touch. You might find stuff on the Extras dvd to inspire you/add.

Looking good, Lee!
Don't lose the continuity between shots though. The sun appears to have moved around to the other side of the house which will impact on the exterior shots.

I like the look you have going Lee.
Your imagery reminds me a bit of the 'Briar Rose' scenes by Stephen Millingen which were very nice indeed.
There is a difference in this scene. In 'Briar Rose' the trailer opened with a high point of tension to set the scene.
2_08 up to this point is a character driven/dialogue piece.

Paul mentions continuity in sun location. Very important indeed and not subject to much interpretation.
I'll talk continuity with respect to the narrative. Subject to much interpretation.

If anything I'd suggest the characters be isolated from the outside... they should feel trapped.
Lighting should emanate from the interior alone as much as possible with little or no visible sky seen through windows.
Light can come through but it should be masked by curtains as if there is something the very nature of this cabin seeks to hide.
Mostly because it does!

The storm itself doesn't happen until later so keep that in mind.
Kicking it off too early will detract from that.
It does not start to rain until "My Heart is Broken" is sung.

Think 'the winds of fate are changing' and you'll get in sync with the subtext of the plot.
The point where the storm begins is where you can say, 'the winds of fate HAVE changed'.

I'd say evidence of any storm should occur no earlier than Nimmie Amee's rejection of Tin Woodman but more likely it would be identified as they leave the cabin. Some subtle cloud gathering could be occurring even as the dialogue starts to escalate in the cabin but not much of that would be seen.

There is great opportunity for transitional effect here.
The weather is quite nice and bright when Tin Woodman knocked on Nimmie Amee's door but when they depart the sun isn't shining so brightly anymore. This all should (in my opinion) happen behind the scenes while they are secluded in Nimmie Amee's cabin.
If you can pull off the subtle change... wouldn't that be some serious foreshadowing! (a thing of beauty if you ask me)
It'd be a lot easier just to isolate them once they enter the house however.
Then its just a matter of 1, 2, 3... the weather changes.

I'd think any evidence of the coming storm would need to be very subtle indeed in any interior scenes.
Once out of the cabin... things can speed up in the background even as the dialogue (and song) slows everything else down.

All this just my thoughts on the setup so take it for what they are worth.
The idea that the storm is brewing is a pretty good one (its got to start somewhere).
Definitely consider storm that will transpire at the end of 2_08 and don't anticipate that too quickly.
If you can pull it off subtly... go for it!

Keep up the great work.
I look forward to whatever lighting decisions you choose to make.

Ahh shucks Ken, you remembered I think more clutter would be good too!




Lee's thought process: "Oh Paul...don't you know that I, being the attractive, intelligent man that I am would check something like that? I'll just go grab the exterior shot and...oh...oh my....CRAP!" Looks like I'm in for a lighting overhaul. Thanks for pointing this out Paul, I think...




Wow Rodney! Thanks for the book! I really like this idea and since I may be overhauling the light anyway I might look into this. However, I am really fond of the contrast that is coming from the above images, I think it adds another interesting element. The Tinman and gang (the light) intrude into this place of mystery as you were saying. Chopfyt is intentionally kept in the shadows while the Tinman is more associated with the light. Let me know what you think; this is just the kind of conversation I wanted to have!

Lee

Lee,
Just so you know... I'm not opposed to the sky being seen through the window. It looks really nice!
I just don't favor it. I can like something and still not think it optimal.

That aspect (closing the shades and isolating the house's interior) is not as important as being careful with story elements (pun intended!) such as the rain.
The primary concern is that if you add rain here it cannot possibly be introduced for the first time in the shots Dhar has shortly thereafter.

Could it work to have the rain start earlier while they are in the house? Sure could.
That might create all sort of continuity problems when they exit the house however.
Tin Woodman doesn't particular care for rain... neither does Scarecrow.
When they leave Nimmie Amee's house the script would have to account for that change.
New dialogue might even have to be created... new questions raised.
What do they think of the rain?
Do they try to avoid it?
How do they avoid it?
What do they say in response to it?
How does it effect their actions?

In Dhar's sequence where it starts to rain it serves the story as Tin Woodman no longer cares what happens to him.
He's pretty much oblivious to the rain. The rain becomes a storytelling, mood enhancing device.
Little if any script change required.

As you can tell, I like working through the possibilities.
Any idea that serves and carries forward the story should be considered.
Those of you working on these scenes get to make those tough decisions on what to keep and what to throw away.

Oh! Actually after your last post I had written off the rain idea, I should have made that more clear.

So do you still not like the idea of seeing through the windows even if it's sunny outside and dark inside? I'm just curious. My grandmas house always had the drapes pulled and I hated it, maybe that's why I'm not looking forward to it

Thanks for pulling me back though, I think the biggest problem with the CG crowd is that it's always visuals/story and not story/visuals. If you think it would be less distracting to have the drapes pulled, I'd love to hear what you think (even if I might not use it )

Lee

As long as it doesn't distract you from the work I'll be glad to tell you what I think.
Glad to hear you agree on the rain.

First and foremost I'd say trust your instinct.
You are spot on when you pull from your experience that feeling of of your grandma's house.

If we are trying to show that Nimmie and Chopfyt are happy in their own little way (which I think we are) then we should go for more open room. I'm liking that even more as I think about it. This makes me want to abandon that isolation I mentioned as it better serves the story to light the room as you are already.

What else could be done in the scene?
Perhaps the windows might be open and a breeze blow the curtains?

I like the idea of a breeze flowing through the house. If an adjustment were needed to have Nimmie or Chopfyt interact with the scene one of them could move over and close the window. Not in the script though so... danger... that'd be a new shot.

The breeze would allow for some change in the light and place it where you need it.
That willow tree outside... shadows and branches would allow for some movement and lighting change (if needed).
This effect could hint at why the light isn't as consistent inside the house as one might think. (read: allow a bit of cheating)
All this more for the animator and effects team perhaps?

You are doing great work so I say keep running with it.
Make the house feel lived in and you'll have succeeded.

Ah, I'm glad I've pulled you to the dark side! I mean...uh...these aren't the droids your looking for...

The breeze idea is really good, I wish I had modeled windows that opened I also like the blowing trees outside, but youch! That's a lot of render time. I suppose this could be done with light gels for most scenes, trying to get my lighting to match outside lighting is going to be a trick too. Then you'd have all those dynamics and cloth simulations to run, yikes! Why are the best ideas always the hardest to pull off?

One more thing, I know that consistency is important, but I would like your opinion. Are the light positions too far off from the exterior that I need to change them? I really like the long sweeping shadows across the room, adds almost a film noir kind of look.

Thanks for the great ideas Rodney!

Lee

Without referring back to the script I envision this scene as taking place in late afternoon/early evening. (the storm hastening the darkness)
As such the long shadows would make good sense.
What you rendered seems almost ideal to me from the lighting perspective.
I'm not in the loop enough to cast a critical eye on that aspect.
If the sun is indeed going down then West would be to screen left I believe.

You asked:


I don't think they are.
I'd guess some adjustments will have to be made as the scenes go to final render.
As such I wouldn't sweat it too much.
I think you've pretty well nailed it. (David's sun continuity suggestions taken into consideration of course.)

Hey everybody! I'm finally getting back to lighting

The hold-up was getting a matte from Mark's exterior set rendered as a backdrop---well I did that and then rendered my scene out happy as I could be....

....however, when the scene came out TW looked really creepy:

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Any ideas what could be causing this: is there some plug-in shader on TW I don't know about?

EDIT: I think I've got it figured out--multipass was on 1 pass and earlier renders were final renders

EDIT2: Nope--still looks creepy...I wonder what's going on?

Lee

Whatever was done at the windows (adding the outside vista?) might be reducing or blocking the incoming light from one or more of the windows... there is little or no reflection (from the right window on TW) and the specular seems to be less than the specular/reflection from that "HOT" chair which lights him from the bottom. Is it within the lighting/camera style of the TWO production to add FOG or D.O.F.. That might help further seperate the forground from the background and diffuse some of the strong light of the chair. Whatever you decide to do with it... it looks great so far.

EDIT: Maybe the chair is not yet textured or something got lost there. Is that chair supposed to be like that?

Thanks for the thoughts Rich! I think DOF would be a great idea! After you said this I was considering just blurring the background matte. I guess that would be more limiting than DOF.

Afte you said that the reflections were different, I went and checked and yes, in the first renders reflections were off. Thanks for planting the seed! It's always one simple button.... I wonder, is there any reason to leave reflections on in this scene?



Well, it was, but it's not going to be anymore. I gave it a quick texture, thanks for pointing that out.

I think I can finally move on to other scenes

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Thanks again! -Lee

Hey folks!

Here's three new shots-- I decided to try cranking 'em out like my name was Stian or something ...but I didn't quite get there

I think they could still use a lot of work--but it's a good start:

2-08-33

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2-08-35

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2-08-37

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I get the feeling that the shadows from the characters are way too much in these last two

Lee

Yep. It's a very good start. I like your impressionistic use of lights and shadows. I like that very much.

Nice lighting, I like the atmosphere. I would suggest that you add a lightlist to TM to brighting him up a bit and give him more life (my opinion though), he looks a little unpolished right now

Thanks Yves, compliments from you are bound to make any day better!



Thanks Stian....you know, after I read this I procrastinated working this out because I didn't know light lists. I finally sat down today and learned them. Here is a comparison of 2_08_30 with the new light list in place:

Old (EDIT: whoops, this is the Old one)

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New

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What do think? I'll probably need to do this with all scenes that TW is in, but it looks MUCH better to me

Lee

Wow! What a difference.

Yes, it looks much better with the lightlist. Great job

Thank Martin and Stian! Glad you agree

Here are the other two scenes with updated TM brightness--hope this was update worthy

2_08_32

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2_08_37

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Lee

i think that one is a lot better than the old one.

Looks good. Thought those shadows on the walls could become distracting when animated.

This is a very dramatic sequence. Stark shadows, moving with the characters, may be just the thing to make it seem so!