I only feel comfortable writing this because I wrote the majority of the renderer (which doesn't mean that much artistically - only that I understand how it works), and I'm lighting a couple scenes myself.

I WANT to experiment with different lighting techniques on this project - at least at this stage - until we find what works the best. That's why I have different people lighting without any guidelines or restrictions. It's been about a month now, and inevitably, we have found some restrictions... For example, per frame rendering can't take more than an hour.

Personally, I'm using light rigs designed to track the character's faces, and Light Lists. I don't know what the other lighters (Colin, Fabrice, Yves, Kevin) are doing? (I read their postings and look at their images, so I have a rough idea, but nothing specific.) I plan to look at images from each of them next week to improve my own lighting.

It seems obvious to use Light Lists but are the other guys using them?
It seems burdensome to use multiple raytrace soft shadow lights but Yves is.
Can the lighting change from sequence to sequence, or even scene to scene?

These are fun questions to answer, and now that we're at this stage, I look forward to discussing and answering them.

Right now, Nancy is carping about the "poster" shot we posted of Tin Woodman and Scarecrow in front of the Tin Castle. I happen to agree with her but we need to strategize on how to resolve "proofing" issues. Who's responsible? Who says what's good?

We worked this out on the modeling, on the texturing (still with some conflict there), and on animation... Now it's time to figure out how to "approve" lighting and composition?

I LOVE working on this project... It is SUCH a challenge!

Ok.. so I'll be second on this post, because I see it as a biiiiiig issue, for many reasons, but I'll stick to the obvious.

first some examples.

My latest render... no touch up..



[attachmentid=22915]

and for comparison Kevin's scene.. The models are the same as above, and of course the lighting is different. Now it could be that something is wrong on the project I loaded. It did report some missing light lists that could explain TM being overlit for specular, or it could be that I punched up TMs specs in the materials to work better in my scene and in Kevin's the mats are to hot ;-) But it illustrates the points made below.

[attachmentid=22916]

Now I see allot I like in Kevin's as far as color of lighting, but his specs come off way to hot on the same model where my diffuse is so dark, I need brighter diffuse lighting and he needs less spec in his. I'll copy his light colors, but even then our lighting styles where very different. He lit the scene like a stage set where lights are set for the particular camera angle. Mine is lit so I should get the same lighting no matter where the camera is pointing. His with all of the model data on renders in 30 minutes roughly. Mine renders in 18, but I have to turn off the model data except for TM and the throne and use a rotoscope as a backdrop (something he could do as well and probably have 18 minute renders or less).

My concern is that "continuity of lighting" is going to be difficult if not impossible to achieve at the rate we are going. If thats ok.. I'll stop talking. If not then we all should try to get in the same ball park.

Nancy textured TM to go in whichever environment and lighting she was using. I tweaked him to work in my environment and lighting, and he renders different yet again in another scene. And I'd also like to point out the depth of field differences while I'm at it, Whats the rule gonna be on that?

ideas? suggestions? cursing hurled my way? its all good at this point.

All I can say is wow.

Kevin's is a bit too hot - but still has it's beauty.

I'm amazed.

Call me fickle. I'm like a girl who can't make up her mind on a single boyfriend so she dates them all. (Hey, that's my daughter, Heather! Now I know where she gets it.)

My plan is that we go with what we have... Yes, the continuity will change... At least for these first couple render passes. I bet we render some of these sequences half a dozen times before this movie is done. Surely, what render technique looks best in what sequence will emerge. Plus, I want to debate the various "looks," (like we did with Scarecrow's texturing - that was enlightening as well as therapeutic).

We're experimenting here; we're training new people, and we're surely going to go back and change things as the project winds up late next year. Let's not be overly concerned with the fine points as of yet. I'm as emotionally vested in the success of this movie as the rest of you, and I'm not worried, (Alfred E. Neumann).

I must admit I was also tweaking tinman to look better for that shot when I was working on it, he is definately way "too hot" now. Especially that face, I bet you could cook an egg on that thing. Are you rendering multipass or abuffer, Colin? Also, you are rendering that shot larger than it needs to be, I was getting around 17-18 minute render times with 16 passes and soft reflections (could also be a computer perfomance thing).

I'm with Colin, this is a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGG issue. Lighting across the other sequences probably can vary in quality without too much impact, but these 2 sequences take place in the same exact place under similar conditions, we need to come up with a simliar look.

As far as Martin's comments, yes, I'm using light lists all over the place, but they do have limitations. They're difficult to use when you have lighting in an action (what the heck do I drag in to the light list?). I also think they would be more useful if they didn't (or at least made it opitional) render shadows for lights not in an object's light lists (this is causing me major grief with rendering hair ... shadow generation is still taking into account hair when I don't want it to). I'm not using any raytraced shadows ... still too slow to get decent quality. Zbuffer all the way baby. And I am changing the lighting from scene to scene. I'm somewhat conflicted with that, I know what Colin is trying to do with getting consistent lighting across all the shots, but doing that seems to limit the ability to get creative/artistic/dramatic with the lighting. However, doing it the other way is proving ... difficult. How are these things done in commercial production?

Colin, in your enumeration of differences that might explain the differences in specular quality, you forgot to mention the reflections. If I'm not mistaken, Kevin is rendering the whole scene in one shot so TM have all the reflected environment on him while you renders the backgound first and then TM on his throne without the environment which removes all the environment reflections from TM. Environment reflection will necessarily add to the hotness of the speculars.

As far as continuity is concerned, I'm with Martin on this. We are all at a stage where we are learning how to light those scenes with the lighting tools that we have. We have several different light types, with all their parameters and different ways of using them. IMO, it would be premature to try to select one approach a priory based on someone form of theoretical concept of how it should be done.

We need to experiment to find out what will work and what will not. What renders fast and what renders slow, what requires long settup time and what requires short setup time, what requires long post processing and what requires short post processing time, etc., etc., etc. After we have explored different approaches and analyzed te results and requirements, we should be in a position where we can decide, based on practical experience, for the best approach and then go for continuity.

But for that, we need to present, compare and discuss our results, and exchange techniques and approaches. This is exactly what your post is about IMO and this is only good.

BTW, I like the "too hot" specularities from Kevin lighting. They give life to TM. He sparkles.

ok.. I'm with you so far.

I went back and realised that I had the main light on TM turned off for specular. Now I'm more like Kevin's. What I did notice was that his eyes got lost with the specular.. so I took Nancy's toned down face group and changed it to just his eyelids. Then tweaked them to make them Darker. worked pretty good. I'll post a render later.

I guess for now.. I'll do it my way and you guys do it your ;-) We'll see where we end up.

for the record my way is still being refined. I do want to light the whole set and let it go, but I need to get faster results so that I don't need to turn off backgrounds and stuff. I like all the reflective goodness, and I see now that its possible to get it with short render times. I just need to figure out how to do it and still light the whole set.

Your hyposthesis can't be the reason either Yves. I turned reflection distance down to 200cm.. and Kevin's overall set is darker than my half one (since I'm using the camer back color to give a general luminance and tint to the reflections. I think the reason is that Kevins lights are cranked up a bit and far away from Tinman which lights the scene better but really lights the heck out of him. My only concern with the hot specs on TM was the potential loss of tonality.

For now lets all be different.

Hi folks. Let me know if I am out of line here, since I don't know too much about how this project works.

One of the key concerns that I have read here is the continuity between scenes, which is a valid concern.

Is it possible for A:M to export just the key frame (and any other bits necessary to rebuild the animation) from one project and import it into another? This way, you could have a master set (such as the TM's throne room), a master TM model, master lighting setup, etc. Each animator would have their own projects and could tweak them as they liked. But when it came time for the final renders to be used in the movie, the master sets, models, etc. would be used with the animation data from each individual project. The final renders would then be using all the same master models, lighting, sets and so on. This would also be done on master calibrated monitors to eliminate any variations in animators models.

I guess it would be like each animator using a proxy set, model, etc. and the final or master projects would use the master, pristine bits and pieces.

Thanks, Al.

P.S. I won't be offended if you end up quoting W.C. Fields and telling me, "Go away boy! You bother me!"

The easiest way to keep lighting across shots/scenes would be to set up the lighting and export that choreography, then you remove everything BUT the lighting setup from the edited choreography.

Then just import that choreography to all the other shots that need it.

I would do this only after the lighting for a scene has been 'signed off'.

As to how to light, I will not put in my two cents as I'm terrible at lighting. (In my opinion anyway)