Have started experimenting with finishing the Tinman's new clothes, as requested:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=203102

This is just a test - not done - going out of town (be back thursday, nov 2), and will refine further.

Have tried to incorporate some of Will's decals - they need modification. I will be playing more. I have toned down some of the reflectivity.

His face probably still has the potential for too much interference from surrounds for reading his expressions.

I had to look at that for quite a while before I could subsume my surprise and critique the image objectively. (It's amazing how we get attached to what we know? We, as humans, start to judge against the past - it's called "conservatism.")

The purple is interesting but I'd rather it was a tint, like Yves' had put a "green" tint on the reflectivity.

The gold trim is terrific.

The face makeup is interesting (too small to really tell what you did). I have no comment other than to say that I could be convinced.

The embossing is terrific.

The reflectivity seems fine. (Not enough context for me to really tell.)

The pose is Nancyesque. I know you do it to tease us guys, you little flirt, you.

!!

The purple is a radical idea.

Almost a Minnesota Vikings Tinman.

Unfortunately, I don't do conservative.

Sounds like you want to stick with what's already been done.

So why me?



There is no face makeup - those are the reflections from the surrounds. That is what interferes in reading the face when animated.

Perhaps I posted prematurely.

Until I saw it, I couldn't picture it...I like it, Nancy! Very different, very cool take on the Tinman.

Not at all. I was simply recounting my own internal experience... Something we can expect from everyone. In fact, I slowly got a big smile on my face as the old thoughts were replaced by the new thoughts. It was refreshing.

Yeah. I suspected that. Don't know what to say or think until we've seen it rendered in a few shots...

Nah. You posted just right.

I like that. It is not very far from the way I was imagining him when I mentioned "Royal" colors. I like the potential.

I hope you add more golden trimmings (like you did on the shoulder pads) on the rest of his suit. Right now, he looks more like he is wearing a spandex suit. And that would help visually figure his poses and body language because it would make the body parts relationships and spatial orientations more visible. This is especially important if he is reflective (even a little).

Maybe he could be like a mood ring...

... purple is envy, right?

Actually I had a Fleur-de-lis pattern on his tunic (left the pants plain) that I liked - but chickened out for posting. Also had a nice tasteful small gold dot pattern that I thought worked well too.

When I get back I'll post those versions along with other mods, and other variations.

I also experimented with a nice emerald green (for Oz), a nice bronze, regal red, and a variety of other colors. Those experiments with the heart paid off. I thought the purple would be the easiest to sell and purple, aside from being royal is also the color of the Winkies.

Have to find a color scheme that can work in a variety of environments.

We Arrrgh-teestes are a sensitive bunch.

(Robcat: Mood ring? You're baiting me? Right? love it - easier to coordinate with the backgrounds)

Nancy do not change your style looks great

The only comment I have about the purple is that it seems very dark.. could make it hard to see his body movements in the dark places like Yoops or night shots. Other than that I liked the idea when I saw it. I think it makes him look very vain.. which I like the thought of, it could make for some interesting acting.

I'd still like to see some reflection in him though.

Don't change Nancy.. I like you just the way you are ;-)

I'm torn. I quite like it and would never have thought of doing it. But the reason I wouldn't have thought of it is why I'm torn. Tinman is iconic. He's made of tin and he's a certain colour (within reason). I fear this might be messing too much with the iconic vision people have of him.

Rhett also made good points before saying we have to look at him alot during the film. Would this colour be too jarring after a while? Also, will he blend with the rest of the (non-Nancy) world?

A possible compromise could be that he has a room full of spare parts.....In his throne room, he wears this colour. Then when he goes out, he wears the normal tin colour so that he doesn't look too pompous amongst his people....and that he doesn't get the paint scratched. He goes back to nature if you will. For tinman is a humble character.
So, preparing for the journey, he could be putting on a new leg instead of getting polished....or both. A gag could be that he has "stripped pyjama" parts he's taking off.

PS The throne room needs more of this colour.

Excellent point.

My thoughts exactly. The first time we see him sans purple is in the "polishing" scene, Act II. He also loses the crown for the journey.

And, like Woot getting his "princely" get-up after being changed back from being a Green Monkey, I'd like to see the purple Tin Woodman back in the closing scene.

p.s. These are my thoughts as "Martin the interested guy who's throwing his two-bit opinion into the ring with the rest of us," not "Producer Martin: decision-maker extraordinaire."

I'm going to chime in as the old guy who likes the old fashioned look. Sorry:(

True that purple dyes were so expensive to make in the old days that only the wealthy and royalty wore them, but he was made from a tinsmith before being king. I'd rather see him maybe not so shiny in the scenes before his rulership and shined up there afterwards. Maybe while he is in the castle he could wear a purple or red robe or be adorned with other lavish colors and pieces. But not his tin. He then won't look out of place when he goes on his journey. He can just take them off.

Hi

I like what Nancy does with Tin Woodman.

My suggest would be to:

Add more design on the body as it is shown on the shoulder's pads.
Think of a Spain torero garnment...

http://images.google.ca/images?svnum=10&am...btnG=Rechercher
http://www.ganaderoslidia.com/webroot/images/torero.jpg
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q...rche+d%27images

Adding more details would help to reduce the darkness of the purple...

I would also turn down the goldish color a bit
...still gold but more like silver with gold reflection...see what I mean?
This is to keep the "tin" relevant

also some ribbons on the calves ? etc.

--------------
be carefull about the "macho" side of the character...is this issue has been already discussed ?.
who is the macho in the hero couple ? Tinwoodman or Scarecrow ?

my two rock in the pond.

Thanks
Al

I do like the idea of Tinwoodman changing clothes/parts allot. What if he was a "Fashionista" and one of the gags was that in every other scene he had some new accessory or clothing item (maybe not every other scene ;-) but then you could do some funny things where Scarecrow and Woot start looking odd at him, and he's like "What?".

The idea that he could be slightly schizo seems on character as well.. Sometimes he could be macho and sometimes he could be a "wussy". It might help to explain different peoples take on his animation style as well?

The more I think about it the more I like the notion of him being made up at points. It may be that I probably have the least invested in this movie at this point ;-) but for some reason Nancy's take seems fresh and new. Sure she's taken it to the "Nancy" limit, but you have to admit, it opens up a wide array of possibilities for the star character ;-)

Nancy has struck a vein of gold with her interpretations of Woot and now Tin Woodman.
What remains to be seen is how it fits into the over all production of TWO.

I was shocked... no... horrified... when I first saw Nancy's purple Tin Man.
Anything but the Tin Man from MGM's 'Wizard of Oz' is going to grate very seriously on me.
I'm sure that will be the case with others too.

The opportunity Nancy presents is to tell more of the tale of the Tin Woodman (in imagery) than we can tell in words and actions alone. That these characters change not only garments but mature and find thier places within the story is an opportunity not to be missed.

The purple need not be retained throughout... Tin Woodman's journey should be plotted quite carefully as the whole movie is about him... but there is something in Nancy's purple Tin Woodman that simple must be retained. Ultimately, who Tin Woodman thinks he is being more important than who we think he is.

(Injured by uncomfortable change... but recovering)
Rodney

Hi
I got no problem if tin woodman have a "royal suit" when he's in his castle
and another one "for the road" ...but more change than that is unnecessary.

and everything unnecessary should be avoided , we should not add to confusion ...IMHO


Al

I don't buy that. How come we enjoyed Shrek for the full duration of the film even though Shrek himself (and his girlfriend later) was jaringly green?

The way I envision Tin Woodman is a lot more like the Tin Toys of those days. In those days, toys were made of tin and then painded on. I like to believe that when Frank L Baum imagined Tin Woodman, it was not as a galvanized metal character but more like a living life-size tin toy. The book illustrator and later the movie portrayed him as a galvanized metal character. This was just too easy. I think we can be more original.

Agreed. Its determining what is necessasary hasn't been locked down.
It certainly wouldn't be too confusing to have Tin Woodman dressed royally when we are introduced to him in the movie. Finding out more about who Tin Woodman is a central theme of the story so that's a journey I'd like to follow them on. Who is Nick Chopper? How did he come to be made of Tin? Is he or isn't he still Nick Chopper? The movie answers these questions all along the way.

How we proceed with fresh ideas and yet pay homage to the classic TWO story will really make this a movie with distinction. IMO TWO already has been moving that direction.

It seems there are still some aspects of TWO (lighting and texturing if not over all styling) still being refined.

I liked it, Nancy

The issue I see with this (other than the necessity of multiple texturings of the Tin Woodman) is that a new scene and/or new dialog would be needed to explain a sudden change in appearance. He can't be purple one night, then shiny tin the next morning without some explanation for continuity. Maybe at his first appearance in a new color have Scarecrow make a passing remark about his affinity for different colors to Woot. Or Woot could ask when he sees a different color for the first time. Either of these would make sense in that Woot is a newcomer in this instance and is standing in for the audience in learning about the Tin Woodman. Then if he changes later, the audience has something to fall back on for it to make sense.

Richard

As the king of the winkies, Tin should have a royal wardrobe. The purple, the royal colors, are quite fitting but Rob's mention of the Minnesota Vikings got my blood boiling. Nancy, as a fellow bay area kid, how about a crimson and gold outfit to commemorate our beloved niners

(the Raiders colors won't do, nothing royal about them)

I somehow missed this thread until now. I love these experiments because it brings new life and potential to the whole movie.

One thing I would say is that, unless the TWO story has completely dropped Baum's descriptions, the Winkies' colour is actually yellow.

I totally agree with Yves' interpretation of Baum's inspiration for the characters. Toys. I am old enough to remember tin toys...just. Tin soldiers and clockwork toys with chipped paint or enamel. I am sure there are alot of references out there on the internet but can't provide you with any links off the cuff. The mechanical toys that I remember always had raised seams where the various parts of the body/shell were assembled and were often held together with simple tabs or the edges were rolled over.

Ku Klip, of course, is a master tinsmith in a fantastic land, where such things as meat glue exist, so his skills will surely transcend those of even the greatest German or Russian toymakers of the 19th century.

Lots of opinions, everybody...very, very interesting comments. Thanks

So I've been playing, since I got back ...

1st (6) group - pale, more subdued colors

2nd (5) group - Bold, deep, saturated colors

3rd group - Two-tone, (2) tunic, (3) matador style

and finally - for my fun - (4) cirque du soleilish

My choices: #1 - multihue lavendar with gold, # 3 - pale multi green hues , # 6 - gold & silver, #14 - gold & deep green toreador, # 16 - Gold & black toreador.

Wow! That's quite a departure from the current look. I need to digest this psychadelic cocktail properly before I make a comment.

-------------

One thing that is really interesting about these tests is that you seem to have used a range of different reflective values in your surface properties. Perhaps it is just the bump maps breaking up the reflections but this clearly demonstrates the problem of having a mirror finish on Tinman. Where this is the case, on his arms and face, the definition of Tinman's body is lost in the background.

Tinman must have clear definition and stand out from his surroundings most of the time.

My personal preferences out of these are, I think, the ones with the yellow/gold torso. Row 2 column 1 and row 4 column 1 for their colours but not neccesarily for the embossing.

EDIT: Oops! See my post below for my choices.

Nice work, Nancy.

---------------

I like #6, gold& silver. And I like #19, enameled fractal.

and of course, I like the beard

Wow! Fantastic palette of costumes. It is almost too many. Surprising, unexpected, creative.

My first choice is #16 Gold and Black named "toreadorbig0.jpg" although, given the gold specular on the black, I would say this is very dark gold rather than black. But, I'm just nitpicking there.

Second choice is #19 too, FractalLeakybig0.jpg. In fact, this would be my first choice but I'm just concerned that this would stand-out too much from the rest of the characters and the environments. I could see him wearing #19 when he is in his castle but wearing the more modest #16 when he goes out for the quest.

Third choice #6 named goldsilverbig0.jpg.


Paul - Your way of designating your prefered ones will not work because the number of images per row depends on your browser window width. You better count them and designate them by their position.

Of course! Thanks.

Nos. 6 and 16 is what I should have said.

Can I have #11 on my XL T-shirt please?

Fantastic work Nancy.

Nancy,

I really like #6, Gold and Silver! Very nice indeed!

-Jim

Hi,

I like for 17 and 14. couldn't pick a third.

Here's the verdict from the Baker house. We never agree on anything.

Jessica (10 years old): #3, exposegoldbig0, she just likes it
Julia (7 years old): #18, "It's pretty"
Yuko: #13, goldredbig0, "Royalty is gold and yellow"
Rodney: #6 and #16 (although I'd experiment with gold gloves/boots)

For the record, I smashed all the images into a movie file so that we could flip through them more easily.
Thats not a bad way to review these. If it had a number on each frame that'd work even better.
Available if anyone is interested.

I'm interested

Can you post it? that would be great. I should have put numbers on them.

hmmm... the gold torsos look too conquistador

the light purple ones look too Barbie

*must-sit-down-before-collapsing* ...
*take-a-deep-breath*
...

Nancy, Nancy, Nancy ...
although it seems that I'm alone here I'd like to see Tinwoodsman with his starting tin again (it's from Yves, right?).
I mean ... he was (and I bet he still IS) a lumberjack! Not a ballet-dancer or frontman of the scissor-sisters!

To be honest, I got heavy problems with your wild-shootin'-paintball-artistic-style.

Maybe I'm to commercial-old-fashioned, maybe that's it.

Anyway, keep up your work. That makes me feel that I'm alive every day.

Cheers,
David

Today I'm feeling that these fruit-cocktail Tinmen are just too 'over the top'. They make me feel a little dizzy!

As stand-alone figures, against a neutral, or subdued background they could work but against a background of vivid colours, that Oz is, they would all be as lost as if he retained a mirror finish and the clash of colours would be unavoidable. This is not to dismiss your hard work, Nancy! I love your flambouyant style and innovative appoach to texturing and I think that someone had to try this sort of thing, if only to illustrate the problems.

Anyway, this is just my personal opinion and counts for nought. Please go and prove me wrong.

Well, after thinking a little bit about it and sleeping the night on it, I must say that I still keep my choices. I love them.

Great work and a lot of choices but, I'm sorry, I still like the initial tinman in all his plain shiny tin glory.

I like them all.. and I find it interesting that William, Yves and I have similar choices for our first 3. I'd recommend against greens since they'd clash with outdoors colors and also make the throne room seem a little Christmas-like. I really like the cirque de soleil stuff though. We should come to an agreement about a style for the throne room and I can through him in on my test renders.

Awesome work Nancy! I'd like to see KuKlips work shop take on a more psychodellic look in spots if we choose one of the wilder looks for TinMan.. maybe we could stick some colorful mushrooms outside of his house ;-)

I like the way this is going. I've always thought Oz should shy away from conventional and be as colorful and fun as possible except where the evil parts lie, like the witch's house.

You can texture for me any day Nancy

I'm feeling lost ... and .. left alone ...
Maybe the secret is inside what you're eating! Talking about some colorful mushrooms, maybe that's a hint ...

Its called personal preference. Your's is slightly different from ours... and thats ok. No mushroom consumption required ;-)

I like what Nancy has done, and I also like the fact that what she has done is nothing like what anyone who has read the book or imagined the character of tinman would come up with. To me that means that they won't see this guy and think "seen it... done it". If this movie is so bland and generic and predictable that every one feels comfortable, then how can we say we've made anything different or new?

The comments about him being a tin woodsman and therefore a macho guy who would only like plain tin seem prejudiced by some predisposition to what a lumber jack would like. But we are talking about an entity made of tin living in a land with witches, wizards, magical tinsmiths, hippogiraffes, talking scarecrows and green monkeys that used to be boys who don't grow old. Why should any of our prejudices or preconceptions be more write than Nancy's? If Oz was real, I wouldn't be surprised if Nancy's vision turned out closer to the truth than MGM's or any other closer to our reality.

Keep up the good work Nancy.. hopefully we'll all meet somewhere in the middle (though I'd rather see it land a little closer to your vision :-)

So well said. My thoughts exactly. Thanks Colin.

It's also about making up a believable world. All the textures, while I like most of them, are to say the least flamboyant. If tinman is flaboyant in nature, we need to animate and voice him accordingly. All the characters' traits need to be nailed down really.
For an over the top example, while it would be original to give woot one leg....how would he walk with his companions? It's that fundamental to making a story work.

I do remember, though (from reading the actual BOOKS) that in more than one occasion tin man was pollished to high shine... (I've read them in translation, so those may not be the exact words), and those passages show that he was indeed vain and proud of his (metalized) looks... so Nancy's approach is very much in spirit of the character!

I have to admit that I was a little skeptical about this approach, but I like the choises that others have made. I actually do like those choices. I was fairly surprised that I did too. It took a bit, but i do like them.

I still think you should add some gold inlay to the beard though.

Hoo hoo - Lots more interesting & surprising responses. Thanks all for your opinions.

Not Surprising: was that # 6 (gold silver) & # 16 (gold, black toreador aka Conquistadore to Robcat) were most frequently preferred.

#6 Gold & silver is neutral (with 7 votes), and # 16 (gold & black) is still neutral - yet bolder (5 votes).

Not Surprising: that some seemed to be perturbed by change

Surprising: For those who were perturbed - if ya couldn't live with #6 - I don't know what to say.

Most Surprising: that Cirque du Soleil-ish # 19 (fractal with hot pink & gold splatter pants aka Mushroom & Paintball to DeeJay) came in 3rd with 3 votes. Actually it should be 4 votes because I actually wanted to choose that one. But I was afraid to appear too pushy weird - so I played safe. Instead I selected # 6 (most safe) - which I really wouldn't have selected. So how crazy is that?

Also surprising: more Cirque du soleil # 17 (gold top, gold & black swirl pants- with 1 vote), # 18(fractal with purple pants - 1 vote) were selected. I thought no one would select any of the Cirque du Soleil

Somewhat surprising: only 2 votes for # 3 - pale greenish swirly pattern - more close to the current in overall tone - just a little more jazzed up. And 2 votes for red/gold choices (#13, #11). 2 votes for Gold/green toreador. No votes for solid Purple or solid green variations. No Barbie/Ballerina/BackupSinger votes (except for me #1)

I loved that Rodney asked his family - That was very interesting, valuable info - I would love to see more "family & friends" opinions.

I hesitated to even try green as I also thought it might be too Christmas-y (as Colin noted) with a red throne and potentially blending too much in a forrest. But I also felt that could be worked around by choosing different tones of red or green - (not that I'm pushing for green) - but I do like the deep green/gold toreador outfit (#14) - as green says woodsman, and gold says Emperor.

But I also think that this is a strange way to do a movie/painting. Focusing on the background or sets rather than on the main characters or point of interest seems to me a bit backwards. The sets should complement and enhance the action & the characters.

I also feel the texture (reflectivity, patterns) of the characters should not interfere with the readibilty of the animation or action. It's very different than making a still image. But I still feel one can do something creative. Some may not believe it - but I was restraining myself with respect to the patterns.

Now on the subject of style: TinGuy is an Emperor - he talks about outfitting Nimmie as his Empress in the finest, elegant tin outfits. He must have a fashion awareness of some sort - he lives in an outrageous palace, he has a throne. He ain't no shlump. He goes on a quest to find his true love. I think he's going to wear his best regal finery in hopes of winning her back. Not jeans & a grateful dead tee shirt. Perhaps, he can get tarnished & roughed up after his encounters with the loons. Maybe that should be his costume change.

I intend to let ideas jell a bit, using all your feedback and will probably come up with some final variation (I'm a glutton for torturing myself)

And to quote myself from a previous post (and concurring with Colin & Yves):

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=204241

I will add to the above that I'd also rather see criticism that says "too far out, too over the top, too weird" rather than "too boring, too tame, too 5 years ago"

AND Just one more thing: I am not taking any meds - recreational or otherwise. They keep the cabinets locked, here at the home.

Thanks again for all your comments.

Nancy,

I originally was resistant to changes to the sort of iconic image of Tinman , but I also strive to be open minded to change, and when you presented such a huge array of choices I was easily able to spot one I really loved (#6). And in fact, I prefer this version because I think it adds so much to his look, and I say again, very nice job!

Just glancing at Wikipedia's entry on the Tinman, it seems to me there's an easy case for seeing the Tinman with a different look than the basic one folks seem to expect. Here's a quote from the entry:

"Far from missing his original existence, the Tin Woodman is proud (perhaps too proud) of his untiring tin body.
A recurring problem for the Tin Woodman in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz and afterward was his tendency to rust when exposed to rain, tears, or other moisture. For this reason, in The Marvelous Land of Oz the character has himself nickel-plated before helping his friend the Scarecrow fight to regain his throne in the Emerald City. Even so, the Tin Woodman continues to worry about rusting throughout the Oz series."

-Jim