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ypoissant
QUOTE(robcat2075 @ Aug 31 2006, 02:51 PM) *

Perhaps, but I only hear that trotted out when someone doesn't like the authority's opinion.
Argument of generalization. Another sophism.
My Fault
QUOTE(pequod @ Aug 31 2006, 01:06 PM) *

Over on CGTalk, there is a very nice short movie called 'Stilt walkers'. I felt the animation was fairly stiff but the rest of it was great. It is curious though how few commented on the stiff animation, perhaps because it was consistent, whereas Briar's eye darting stands out the more I replay it.


My biggest beef about this at CGTalk is that it still hasn't made the front page. This is a very impressive piece that tells a story well and the overall animation is exceedingly well done. I will continue to pester the forum leaders and hope everyone else will as well. Front page worthy!!
KenH
Does it not have to have five stars before it gets on the front? If not, who do we pester?
robcat2075
I think it's just the whim of the front page editor. That dialog test with a guy tied in a chair they had up a bit ago sure didn't seem to merit being there.

QUOTE(ypoissant @ Aug 31 2006, 05:10 PM) *

QUOTE(robcat2075 @ Aug 31 2006, 02:51 PM) *

Perhaps, but I only hear that trotted out when someone doesn't like the authority's opinion.
Argument of generalization. Another sophism.


Incorrect. Saying that I've only observed something to happen under certain conditions is not making a generalization.

If I had said "We always hear that trotted out when..."

that might be a generalization.


Rodney
I guess this would be a bad time to bring up the 'Brair Rose' butt criticism eh? tongue.gif

Animation is all about forever improving upon a work. But one does not have 'forever' to get the job done.
At some point even Pixar has to say 'That'll do.' or 'Good enough'.

I like to think of this as 'perfect enough'. That term reminds me that there are decisions to be made but those decisions may not always lead to the best solution.

We'll never reach perfection but resources, artistic choices and time constraints will force every artist to finish a piece sooner or later. Its the rare artist that looks at his work and is completely satisfied with it.
Most can always say... "If I had a little more time" or "I really would have liked to do 'this'."

As a one man show... the eye darting... just doesn't register with me.
Now about that butt... I haven't made a study yet of women's butts... this is sure to get me slapped before I learn much more about that. Hmmm....

Yves already hit on the 'appeal to authority' thing.
I was thinking about that today at work regarding this very topic.

When critiquing a work it's not enough to appeal to authority... examples... references... experiences... that'll speak volumes.

It's all well and good to say 'I don't like the eye movements' but its even better to come supplied with something to back things up. A well informed opinion is still just an opinion without that.

If its just opinion... no need to say anything further.
If its opinion that is backed up by references... then the opinion carries weight with it and will educate all.
I'm sure you'll even get serious gratitute for your effort. I'm sure that'd be the case with Stephen.

My question was just a simple one concerning the criticisms of the eye movement in 'Briar Rose'.
I'm sure Stephen would appreciate any and all information that would help improve his next effort.
I know I would. I like to learn some of this animation stuff... it might come in handy one of these days.

Mike and Robert have hit on some aspects of the eye criticism.
Looks to me like Stephen got to that inevitable point where he pushed the button that said, 'perfect enough'.

Best,
Rodney

P.S. to Yves: Someone saying "I find I usually disagree with him (meaning you)" can be considered a badge of honor too ya know. Especially if you are often right. wink.gif
KenH
QUOTE
I'm sure Stephen would appreciate any and all information that would help improve his next effort.


I believe Stephen knows exactly what he's doing and where he went "wrong". But for you....it's that the irises are on one side of the eye socket on one frame and on the next frame they're on the other side. In effect, they could be considered un-animated as they are just the extremes.
John Bigboote
WOW! This thread has taken a nasty turn since last I checked.

SINCE we are 'Chai-bashing' on stellar animations... anyone else notice the hair in Monster House was overly rigid? Or that Disney's Fantasia multi-planes were over used? Or the line-thickness in Samurai Jack is too thick?

I get over-criticized every day on my work, so I like to over-critisize a bit myself now-and-then. For instance, last night a beautiful sunset fell over the western sky. At first, I was stunned by the overwhelming visual overload- but slowly I saw it's flaws...

IT'S ANIMATION!!!!!
Rodney
I have it on good authority that we might see some good information on animating of the eyes yet posted in this topic. I hope the occasional word or two that normally might send people into a frenzy will be easily forgiven so that we all might learn. The day we think we know everything there is to know about animation is the day to move on to another hobby/profession.

As Edward Deming was heard to occasionally say, "Can we not learn?"

In my opinion:
One reason the eye movements don't bother me (and quite the opposite make me think they fit perfectly) is that these are quite obviously cartoon characters. If they were otherwise presented (more realistic?) I might have to look again. As it stands... I really like the eye movement. Thats the reason for my confusion.

In my own naive/novice kind of way I'm saying the extreme eye movement hit its mark.
It conveyed the message and demonstrated the intent of a 'thinking' character.

I'd like to suggest everyone find at least one thing in 'Briar Rose' that they thought was 'outstanding'.
There is lots to choose from.

Just the credits at the end blow me away... and they are just sitting there... watching...
Thats great stuff! smile.gif
trajcedrv
I didn't think that eye movement topic could raise so much dust around those parts... ;-)

Although there probably are other areas of improvement (for example I don't like much Rose's pose when she first enters the room - it feels much too exposed for quick sneak-in), I am feeling that all of the animation in the trailer is at least "good enough" in the sense that everything works and there is not a single moment that I would point my finger and say "this doesn't feel right" (I wish that I could say that for anything that I animated and that lasts more than 5 seconds)

Only thing that I found distracting was above said eye movement ;-P

Hovewer, I cannot emphasize enough how lovely renders look, subtilety and quality of lights... hair... you name it! Professonal looking animation that equals the effort of whole animation department in some company - made by one man!

Drvarceto
3DArtZ
that's the thing I hate about critique. they are for the most part opinion, most of the time popular opinion
wins out. But people sometimes act like they are factual issues, when sometimes they are preference of the
artist.
When I first saw the animation, I chalked the eyes up to the fact that the girl was in a high drama situation where she was on full guard. If ones eyes would be darting/teleporting from one side to the other, this would be the scenario.

I don't feel like the eye issue is enough to say it was a problem. Heck, every non animator I showed it to
thought it was for a real movie. I'd say that's enough of a reaction to know that this was top quality work.

Say this was part of a longer movie and in the other scenes her eyes were more well behaved.... I think that would only accentuate the "feelings" that the eyes were conveying during this scene.

2cents provided by

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com
Dhar
Is it my turn for my 2 cents?

I agree with Mike, the girl is definitely on high adrenaline and the darting eyes accentuate that fact. When she entered the room, so abruptly, you can hear her heavy breathing, like she's running from someone/something. Then her whole body darts for crying out loud.

Maybe what bothers some people is that her eyes (very pretty BTW) are so large that it's hard not to pick on their movement.

Personally, & I'm surprised no one picked up on this, when she entered the room, we hear high winds in the background and see the tree swaying but the fog moves like it's a quiet and calm night!

Also, that kettle is not the whistling type.

So there, now you have something else to bitch about wink.gif
Leave the eyes alone.
Rodney
QUOTE
Also, that kettle is not the whistling type.


Hey... those are some good finds Dhar!

The steaming kettle thing...
Doh! Why didn't I see that?
Must have been because my senses where overloaded by the sound and visuals.

Good crits Dhar!


Edit: Back in the days of collecting comics Marvel Comics use to give out their 'No Prize' to people that explained away things like this to help keep continuity straight. In that tradition I'll offer the following:

- The fog is 'otherworldly'. It doesn't react naturally because its magical/MISTical and only is present when people change into werewolves.

- The kettle is a family Bellows' family heirloom. It was modified because Gordon uses it so much he needed a sign for when his water was ready for tea. The addition is inside the spout... no... um... really! biggrin.gif

Do I get a Ya Know' Prize now?
My Fault
I certainly didn't intend to help blow this up in to a big issue but to me it was the one thing that really jarred me out of the scene. My wife and son also had the same reaction but they probably don't count as non animators as they have both watched countless animation lectures including Jason Ryan's (Disney animator) fantastic eye lecture and a talk my other mentor Jason Schleifer (Weta and Dreamworks) gave to us one week on eyes. I will try to locate my "eye" notes and post up a bit in another thread so as not to take anything away from Stephen's incredible work.

I do apologize if I came off too blunt but that is how we were generally trained to be in Animation Mentor. Honest criticism by everyone was highly valued as it made us all the better for it. Doesn't take long to develop a thicker skin and realize that no one was out to rip anyone elses work but wants to see everyone improve and become the best animator that they can each be. I need to remember that this community is not like that and most do not want to hear what is wrong but what is right. My bad and I will try like heck to do that in the future.

And for goodness sake, will someone change Bigboote's diapers, he seems like he is very cranky. tongue.gif
Rodney
QUOTE
I need to remember that this community is not like that and most do not want to hear what is wrong but what is right.


No need to be wrong again. wink.gif

Looking forward to your posts.


Edit: Sorry that sounded confrontational... not meant to be.
Just saying don't blame the reciever for a failed communication.

In other words, Relax. You're among friends here TOO!

Best,
Rodney
Dhar
QUOTE(My Fault @ Sep 1 2006, 08:43 AM) *

I do apologize if I came off too blunt


Well, it's your fault. Just look at your name wink.gif
gschumsky
Wow! That is simply amazing. Great work Stephen....
LurkerAbove
QUOTE(John Bigboote @ Aug 31 2006, 07:46 PM) *

WOW! This thread has taken a nasty turn since last I checked.

SINCE we are 'Chai-bashing' on stellar animations... anyone else notice the hair in Monster House was overly rigid? Or that Disney's Fantasia multi-planes were over used? Or the line-thickness in Samurai Jack is too thick?

I get over-criticized every day on my work, so I like to over-critisize a bit myself now-and-then. For instance, last night a beautiful sunset fell over the western sky. At first, I was stunned by the overwhelming visual overload- but slowly I saw it's flaws...

IT'S ANIMATION!!!!!


You know, I was seeing a bit of 'Madagascar' and I noticed the eyes had specularity that didn't bug me until Rodney pointed it out on my Rabbits. When I removed it, I was very pleased with the result.

So yeah, we *might* be overly picky, but I think we have the vocabulary (I never used specularity in a sentence until I started working with A:M) but my tiny brain saw something was *off*.

I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning everything, and someone makes a decision on whether the criticism is enough to change something. What makes these forums so interesting is that no one seems to be posting criticism to bash, but to observe and in the end help make a better animation.

For example, There's a point in the begining where Rose rests her head in her hand. I don't know why, but the hand doesn't look like it takes the weight of a head. If someone looks at it again and says, "Naw, its good enough" that's cool. It could be just my perspective. wink.gif

And on the other side, the fur on the teddy bear? ooh la la! wink.gif
racreel
I've ben away from the boards for a couple of months and am seeing this for the first time. All I can say is

Impressive... Most Impressive!

biggrin.gif Richard
Bruce Del Porte
I'm late to the show here but I think this piece is outstanding movie making. Bravo Stephen, Bravo! I hope Lasseter calls to offer you the office between Doctor and Bird. As to the food fight above, when your production budget becomes a million dollars a minute, you can assign someone to do eye dart R&D.

I loved it, thanks for sharing.

Bruce
nyahkitty
That was extremely well done.
Nicely polished through and through.

It goes up there with "The Duel" and the like.
The textures, lighting, cinematography, etc.
But I particularly liked how the characters emoted, how they expressed in their body language and facial expressions.
Also, the design of the characters was very well done, very nice to look at.

I am definitely looking forward to the completion of this project.
And the behind the scenes notes on how it was all accomplished.
Dagooos
Hi Stephen,

Just watched this again. The overall quality and all the little details its amazing this was done by one person.

The little wings on that guys hat hilarious!

Have you had any commercial interest in this yet?

David
KenH
Hey Stephen. Any developments on this? I hope it's not going to just gather dust. An affirmative with out details would suffice.
3DArtZ
I just watched this again the other day....
yes this trailer has a permanent spot on my harddrive!

Let us know what's happening, if anything!

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com
pequod
Gathering dust I'm afraid. I'm pretty much a spent force when it comes to big projects like this. I have been toying with the idea of doing a short (very slapstick) episode of the two main characters. Something with a beginning and an end and a story in between.
BrainLock
It's an amazing piece of work, on par with some of the best we have seen out of Hollywood. Do you animate for a living or is this just a hobby? Couldn't you show the trailer to a producer to get financing to do a "full length" short or more?

I had a question about the plot - is Briar Rose supposed to be smart or a bit dim or absent-minded?
largento
I'm really sorry to hear this.

It's an inspiring piece of work. Sets the bar really high.

I hope you do the short, though.
Tralfaz
Hope you will be able to do something with these characters!

I have saved this video and show it to just about everyone as to what A:M is capable of.

Al
KenH
I especially love the dragon. You just have to do something with him too!
goodguy20k
SWEET MOTHER OF PEARL! blink.gif

That rocked! You HAVE to do SOMETHING with it! Even just... Another trailer! wink.gif
satyajit2000
Yes,

It can't be like this. This is an extraordinary piece. But like Martin said - "The most difficult thing about making movies is selling them". This is a single joint where the ones with the most talent but less contacts gets lost.

If only something could be done. Ever tried to sell your shorts Stephen? You got such a fan base. I'd buy that. At least we all can try to generate some money to get another from you.

Far fetched idea...?

Satyajit
oakchas
How?
How'd I miss this?
Whoa!
I'm so sorry this hasn't gone further.

Eyes be dammed! This is powerful stuff.
Looking at it as though I knew nothing of 12 rules (and I know so little, anyway), this is great story and animation, believable, wonderful stuff.

Real potential here.. REEL feature potential. Sad thing I'm not rich, or you'd have some funding.

Gonna go watch it again
Rodney
There was a time when the release of animation of this quality would have commanded a lot of attention. Now the ripples of interest go out a little more slowly over time. There is a lot of talent out there in a pretty saturated animation market these days. Aspiring animators take note.

Even with all that is out there 'Briar Rose' is exceptional in its storytelling, characterization, quality and scope. Its a wonderful demonstration of Stephen's talent, creativity... and yeah... stubborness. wink.gif

Your work speaks for itself Stephen.
Disney had to work on the fringes for a few years too so hang in there.
Sometimes we have to create the future ourselves.
John Bigboote
There's something to be said for a story with a beginning, middle and end. Too many stories today are lacking any or all three. And slapstick? Man, you are speaking my language! I have an idea about three hot strippers who are smooth and beguiling under the stagelights but backstage are Larry-Curly-Shemp!

Oooops! Now everyone has the idea...

What Stephan needs...like a lot of us out there(here)... are CO-llaborators. Martin has the right idea I think. We need to band together into ever-changing groups and start attacking our ideas on a larger scale.
Rodney
QUOTE
What Stephan needs...like a lot of us out there(here)... are CO-llaborators. Martin has the right idea I think. We need to band together into ever-changing groups and start attacking our ideas on a larger scale.


Was that a spark of an idea I just saw Matt?
Someone throw a little fuel on that idea and maybe we'll light a fire yet.
pequod
When I first picked up AM, many years ago, my intention was to break into the 3D animation industry. Times have changed and I'm no longer trying to make a name for myself. I'm primarily a hobbyist, that's why I still show up on the forum from time to time.

So please don't worry that somehow the Briar Rose project is missing out on some opportunities, it's creators simply don't have the energy to pursue them. So, I've never attempted to sell the idea. Of course if someone were to come along and pay me a ton of money for the rights......

QUOTE(BrainLock @ May 27 2007, 12:13 PM) *
I had a question about the plot - is Briar Rose supposed to be smart or a bit dim or absent-minded?


Briar Rose is meant to be smart, I'd say Gordon is the absent minded one, but he ain't no dummy either.

robcat2075
QUOTE(John Bigboote @ May 29 2007, 09:13 PM) *
What Stephan needs...like a lot of us out there(here)... are CO-llaborators. Martin has the right idea I think. We need to band together into ever-changing groups and start attacking our ideas on a larger scale.


Stephen might well find people wanting to help, but finding people who can do fine animation to match what he's already done... those are hard to come by. And then, explaining what one needs to each person so that it doesn't come out looking like each shot had a different director... that can take more time than doing it one's self.

I'm not saying it can't be done, though.


John Bigboote
Good point RobCat... HEY! Where's your Avatar???

I've had an idea for some time that would alleviate your concern...it's a what-if:

WHAT IF: A group of talented A:Mers got together and made a series of cartoons in a diffent manner. Everyone would collaborate on modelling a 'set' and a cast... let's for example use the old cartoon metaphor of a dog, a cat, a mouse and a bird all living in the same house....but it could be anything. ONCE the models of the actors and sets are finished, each collaborator would then set out on making a 2-3 minute cartoon using those props to tell a story of his own direction/imagination. When/If finished, you would have a campaign/series of stories featuring the same recognizable characters, which is far more marketable than a one-off.

The set and characters could be very simple, and each director would have to follow common characteristics...such as one guy is meek, the other is brash ect.
robcat2075
QUOTE(John Bigboote @ May 30 2007, 05:04 PM) *
WHAT IF: A group of talented A:Mers got together and made a series of cartoons in a diffent manner...



It would have to be a really with-it and like-minded group with a common vision. I think you'd need one guiding hand over it all and that would be a seriously difficult job.

Consider the difference between an early Tex Avery Bugs Bunny and a late Chuck Jones Bugs Bunny. Technically the same character, but they seem to be completely different people.
Rodney
QUOTE
WHAT IF: A group of talented A:Mers got together...


This happens pretty frequently already but that doesn't mean its not a good idea.
It'd be interesting to list some of the collaborative projects just to see where everyone has been and what has been achieved.

When it comes to collaborative projects it seems clear that TWO should remain the focus there.
Once TWO is completed who knows what might be next.

What may be missing at this point is an 'ultimate goal'; hitting specific targets.
I think the A:M Community is nearing the point where collaborative projects of the paid kind may become the norm.
Such projects allow A:M Users to supplement their income and at least stay current with the tools of the trade (primarily A:M).

Is the collective talent in the A:M Community up to that level yet? (Robert has properly inserted this into the discussion)
Maybe not quite yet but it sure is getting there.

This is not to say that all ultimate goals have to have paid contracts attached to them.
I'm a big fan of collaborating for the experience and opportunity to meet interesting people too.

Paid gigs do tend to keep artists and animators in business though.


(Just what came to mind. Not meant to be taken too seriously)

I sense a thread drift so will reiterate... Briar Rose is outstanding work. Somebody buy that thing! wink.gif
Rodney
I'm bumping this topic up because Stephen Millingen's 'Briar Rose' is playing at the top of the forum.
Even today, it's still a piece of outstandingly tremendous work.
Highly entertaining too!

...and in case the info is not easily found... this short was created in A:M v11.
jimd
QUOTE(Rodney @ Oct 2 2011, 07:22 AM) *
I'm bumping this topic up because Stephen Millingen's 'Briar Rose' is playing at the top of the forum.
Even today, it's still a piece of outstandingly tremendous work.
Highly entertaining too!

...and in case the info is not easily found... this short was created in A:M v11.


WOW !!
thanks 4 posting that
j

Fuchur
And anytime I watch it, I just can say Wow! again...

*Fuchur*
Darkwing
I think that may be one of the most incredible things I've ever seen done with AM, at least as an actual film/animation
fae_alba
Awesome!
mouseman
Yeah, shorts like this one, "Duel" and all of the other Anzovin shorts, Victor Navone's "I will survive", Jeff Lew's "Killer Bean", as well as ToreB's Kafka short and the Chickory (sp?) short all really inspire me.
Gerry
I really enjoyed watching this again the other day. Thanks for returning it to prominence!
Paul Forwood
None of the links work for me. Maybe it's a Google Chrome thing.
Stephen is still making people go, "WOW", but he's doing it in Blender now.
tbenefi33
Holy Cow awesome work.
Rodney
QUOTE
I think that may be one of the most incredible things I've ever seen done with AM,

QUOTE
Stephen is still making people go, "WOW", but he's doing it in Blender now.


Stephen's film is a great piece to study and not just from the aspect of animation.
You can readily see the care he took in the design of these characters and sets.
The sound alone is entirely captivating (close your eyes and just listen to it).
Story and conflict. Mystery and intrigue. Elements that engage all our senses.
The use of opposing elements to enhance our sense that the environment is changing.
Movement from out of the cold toward the heat as Stephen keeps directing and diverting our attention
Our growing sense that all is not well... dark shadows, locked door, sharp knives... all heighten our apprehension.
Stephen expertly directs us exactly where we need to be as our empathy with Briar Rose increases.
...and then he breaks away from all of that and gets silly.

Stephen is not just an artist. He's a genius.

It's not the software that makes the movie... but I'm glad Stephen made this one with A:M.

I think my personal favorite part of this film is at the very end with the credits. Just when I think I know what is going on Stephen manages to recapture my imagination.
Shelton
Rodney

I agree. The credits are my favorite. The hair blowing and the look of the dragon is great. His dragon reminds so much of the Gronkle dragon in How to train your dragon from Dreamworks. This is a great piece of work

Steve

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