Is it possible to render sub frame motion in a multpass render so that each "sub frame" is "full strength" or... a defineable amount?

The motion blur with sub frame motion works... sort of... I just wanted to know if there is anyway to have each "frame" within a frame... be applied in a more... specific way? Almost like a stop motion kind of thing... each step in the pass at "full strength".

-vern

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.




Are you trying to do something like this?

Vern,
Look into Xtas's MUFOOF technique. It might do the trick.

Xtas's Multiple Frames within Frames (MUFOOF)

Hm... dont knwo exactly what you are looking for, but you could although increase the FPS.
Just dont use 25 or 30... use 60 and you have faked 2 "Sub-Frames" in 1 "Main-Frame"...
(you can do that at the options)

*Fuchur*

Well... here's the scoop...

That image is kind of what I'm going for... but... more.

The best description would be... a camera in a dark room with the shutter open and you wave a light around and "paint" on the film.

To be specific... if you have an image that is say... a 2d diagram... and moved it over time... it would "paint" a pseudo 3D effect... and yes I am aware that I posted a similar thing in the artistic rendering forum.

I am also aware there would be easier ways to do this using actual 3D.

This is an "experiment". I have no goal or specific purpose. I am trying to replicate an effect from... something else. If I can replicate this in AM I could possibly animate the out put.

This was done using a 2D application (NOT AM) and a "fake" motion blur...
[attachmentid=18799]

This was the closest I could get using AM at this point...
[attachmentid=18800]

-vern

Just courious... Are you going for a holographic look that is animated? Also have you tried a long exposure? Conceptually that might work by having the object move alot during a 1 frame or less per second rate. Probably would not work because the comp's frame rate would have to be different than the cameras, but could possibly be faked in post. Take a sequence of image into say After Effects, compress the sequence's run time in a comp. I.E. take a 60 frame sequence and play it back in 1 or so frames, might work. Good luck.

Toby

My suggestion would be to use a High Dynamic Range decal on each surface of your model. Motion Blur averages the light per pixel, so if you are using 16 passes and you want a white model, then you would want a HDR image that is 16 times brighter than white. Try also saving the image as an EXR format and compositing the image to brighten it up.

Thanks Matt,

Man...

I was so trying to avoid HDR and A:M composite!

I think this sounds like a possible way to go and I will play with it. I may have to switch to the PC though... does v12 handle HDR or was that a 13 feature?

Tarmer,

Thanks for the suggestions. The whole point of the experiment is to totally AVOID compositing outside of AM and using other applications.

I want this to be a pure AM solution... well... AM and Photoshop.

To be honest this effect could be achieved perfectly by just... modeling the silly thing. I just really loved this idea of being able to "paint" 3D structures using flat images.

I can draw all kinds of simple crazy diagrams in AI or Photoshop or even in A:M itself! Then just... "paint" interesting 3D constructions.


-Vern

Wouldn't Onion Skinning be a good way to do this? I went to try it out, but I can not find it anymore... Has Onion skin been dumped or what?

Nope. Still there via TOOLS/OPTIONS on the Onion Skin tab.

Wow, that's a cool idea. Except for the layered effect, i think it would be just easier to use density and differnt transparancy and color values to get what you want in a 3d model. It would have lots more control too

Also, if you were planning on moving around it your camera motion blur would have twisted and distorted the 3d map in the end

The test I did worked fine.

[attachmentid=18814]

That's with an EXR projection map material that is 100 times brighter than white. I created a simple 25 frame animation, and set the cycle length in the choroegraphy to 1 frame to get a more dynamic motion blur.

Though you will need to step up the number of passes quite a bit if you want it to look better.

[attachmentid=18815]

That image is with 81 passes, and took roughly 5 times as long to render as the 25 pass render before.

Yes,

I thought about those "movement" issues. My plan was to set up a chor (more experimenting) in such a way as to... "lose" the "motion" over large jumps in time or key frame it out some how on key frame "groupings".

I could then render "segments" or ranges of the time line to get a simple animated effect.

If I stop the motion of the camera and "skip" ahead to another point in time where the motion blur isn't "active" I could then rotate or move the camera and replicate the effect at a new position (moving the camera, not the object will be paramount in this... and easier to control.)

I know this whole thing sounds silly... but I enjoy these excursions on occassion. Even if the end result doesn't quite get there. I usually learn something else entirely on the journey... like getting lost on a long car trip... or... your car breaks down in some out of the way place and you have an unexpected, unplanned fun experience.

--------

On a side note... the "other" unnamed application couldn't POSSIBLY animate this effect. It would require setting up and rendering EACH FRAME as a separate project file.... it would take... days... weeks... months... just to set up and render a few seconds. The timelines would be enormous (I need 120 frames for each single image to get the effect needed)

If I can pull this off in AM... it might be doable. And plus... even if this could be done using a 3D model... it wouldn't have the same... "feel"... that sort of "retro" quality.

I appreciate the advice and help and I just want you guys to know that no sleep will be lost. There is no deadline.

This is... like... building a replica of the Eiffel Tower out of legos... it would be easier to use... better, simpler, more appropriate materials... but then it wouldn't be... made of legos. Using the legos is the artistic goal.

-vern

Looks like that'll do it, Vern!
How does one make the exr file, though? and will v12 import it?

To make an EXR light intensity map, just shine a really bright light at a square or rectangular (2X1) patch(preferably with a sun light aimed directly at the patch). You will need to set the image type to EXR in the Output Options window. Based on how bright you want it to be, the light intensity should be as many times brighther as the number of passes you will be uses if you want it to be pure white to move accross the screen.

Vern, I tried remaking that diagram you have in 3D. The only problem I can see is the large amount of Aliasing that occurs like in this test image:

[attachmentid=18817]

Perhaps the AntiAliasing feature in A:M Composite will clean up those edges.

Here's the project file if you want to take a look at it:

[attachmentid=18818]

What if you simply put copies of the original at the begining and end and use the original to create the blur from one to the other? You could adjust the blur and translucency/transparencey of the stationary copies independently to get exactly the crispness or fuzziness you desire. I bet you could even get an effect where it starts in one color and ends in another, transitioning in the motion blurred part. You could also place copies of subcomponents at intermediate points in the transition (sort of a multi-story effect).



Pretty cool effect so far, Vern!



Bill Gaylord

I'm not quite exactly sure how I would go about doing that.

Though the yawning in 1/30th of a second looks like something out of the matrix (that or Jacob's Ladder).

[attachmentid=18819]

Matt!

You genious! Thanks dude! This is exactly the look I was aiming for!

The aliasing is expected and perfectly acceptable. I got the same thing with my original examples in that "other" application. The key is more passes to fill in the gaps.

I kind I like the gaps... they remind me of scan lines.

I look forward to playing around with this and really appreciate the help. I don't think I would have even thought of the HDR decal. The knowledge was there in my head... but since I haven't really played with it much I wouldn't have made that connection.

-vern

The render I made is just with a really bright light 750% intensity. You could have gotten the same effect with HDR decals, but the light is a little quicker to work with and I not have to deal with shadows/environments and things like that.

Yeeeeehaaaaa!!!!

This is like... you get a cool toy for christmas... you play with it for ages and suddenly discover... it has a whole new "thing" on it you never noticed before!

AND.... it works on my A:M v12 Mac!!! WoooHoooo!

You rock man. This is great. I got it working using the really bright light technique... now I can play around with it.

I was confused at first because... well the test project didn't have any materials... or an EXR image... so... I am looking at in AM v13 on the PC and transfering all the "numbers" to my original v12 project on the Mac (two dang keyboards... got a get a switch for that very confusing)... and low and behold it worked fine.

Just for FYI... this works with cookie-cut image decals... you get the same effect.

This is going to be fun. I have all these ideas to try out... I want to see if I can putt in smaller images for internal areas... change the Y translation so they "stop" and "start" creating "sections".

Good grief... could build a whole "thingy" out of a collection of simple shapes.... they could translate off on other axes...

Who knows? You may see this in an upcoming appropriately themed... image contest entry... maybe.

Thanks Matt... you the bomb.

-vern

Glad to see that you got it to work. You can have each floor patch stored at the same level, and set the transparencies over time as all the patches rise in an animation to get a multi-story effect. I'm sure if you used slices of a 3d house (around 100) you could get a pretty awsome looking render.

Jumpin' Jehosophat!

It works with layers!!!!!!!!

Hah!

Using a 3D program to create 3D with... no models... no decals... just images... on layers...

This may cause a rift in the time space continuum... or violate some kind of 3D artists union rules.

Ironically... it takes longer to render than actual 3D. I still think it's cool.

-vern

Well this is not perfect yet... but it has promise.

3 layers, 2 images, multi-pass at 36, light brightness, 300%.

[attachmentid=18847]

Moving layer is just lines. Top and bottom layers not moving have the same lines and a transparent fill to give it some solidity.

The base "layer" is too bright... and the ghosted motion blur loses definition on the extreme outside areas, probably due to the fact that there is only black to... blur against.

Anyway... great start and I will continue tweaking.

-----------
Other Issues:

Yes... the aliasing due to no multipass on individual sub frame blurred steps is a problem at small render sizes. Bumping up the size of the final render does something to help with that. Placing a copy of the layer at the top and bottom would also help since non moving layers get all the juice from the multi-pass.

(Hee hee... can Hash have a feature to multi-pass each multi-pass please? I would call this a "meta-multi-pass". I'm joking! No letters please)


I think I need to reverse the motion so the top is brighter than the bottom... don't know if doing that will actually work... but I will try it anyway.

-vern

Holy freakin' cow...

Much faster render times on my PC... yikes... like... 5 times as fast.

[attachmentid=18851]


Notes:

Larger resolution on final render seems to make the step gaps smaller... is this possible or am I losing my mind?

Stupid Vern... I had my action going the wrong way... down to up. I flipped that and got better results. Tweaked the transparency of the layers and boosted the light to 750%. Added color to the images.

I also set the action key frames to zero slope. This causes the multi-pass steps to be "closer" at the top and bottom. Nice effect.

I may need to increase steps to get more strength on the ghosting.


I'm diggin' it.

-vern

I knew it had to be possible. I can't wait to see it animated, it's going to look sooo holographic!

Animating this looks... iffy... the render times are still pretty long... and I'm not sure about my idea for overiding the motion blur... but...

... of course... I must try!

-vern

I take that back. It seems to be working fine to animate.

I have a reapeating action for the "object" motion blur.

I only key frame the camera in sort of a "lock step". Move on one frame... hold for one frame... move on next frame... hold... etc.

I can then render every other frame and there is no camera motion effecting the motion blur since the camera is holding on the frame before the render.

Of course this will make animation a bit tricky since I have to key frame every step of the camera motion.

If anyone has a trick to make this part easier I am all ears. I can't use hold interpolation... I could animate the camera then just add key frames on every other frame and set them to hold interp...

...oh wow... I'm getting dizzy...

-vern

That's looking awesome Vern, pretty soon we can recreate the Strain itself and take out an entire town! Er, maybe not.

Is there a way to force key frames on every frame... or every other frame? Like... baking an action?

If I animate a camera move... I would like to bake a key frame on every other or every frame then I can just set it all to hold interpolation and delete every other key frame... ... or not... if I could force a key on every other frame I wouldn't have to do anything and I could easily render animations of this effect.

This is looking kind of cool. Rendering a simple animation as we speak.

-vern

That was an idea that I had thought of. Though I knew it would be very time consuming to do. I think the hologram shifting a little will look fine. Though you should probably build an animation of the rising frame and have it hold about three frames out of 50 on each end so you get a thicker top and bottom frame (probably wouldn't look that good to have those two stationary with a moving camera). Looking great!

Mat,

Not sure what you mean there... but...

Basically I am rendering a short camera fly around of the "complete" 3D wire frame.

Each frame rendered is just like my samples so far.

I found a great way to do the camera moves. I created a model with a camera offset from the model bone. In the chor I adjust the camera bone where I like it and then just animate a rotation of the model to spin the camera.

I bake that action with a 0 setting and get a key on every frame. Set the frames to hold and delete the odd keys. Then render using 2 as the offset in the range.

Pretty dang easy... easier than I thought.

Had some trouble when the camera was too close to the layer with an extreme focal length and had to fix that.

Doing another render (only 15 frames very small size just to test the process).

---------

Just for grins here's another example of the technique... I know... it isn't really a sphere. I need some kind of math... stuff... to figure out how to adjust the scale, translation, and key frame curves to get a perfect sphere... still fun though.

[attachmentid=18869]

-Vern

sine for x translations and inverse cosine for y translations. That should make a shere (I think). Might just want to do sine for both of them. I'll check it out.

Low res crappy sequence render. Didn't use smoothing on the multi-pass and it is really tiny and very short. It only has 15 frames at 10 fps but you get an idea of the potential.

I think tonight I will render out a longer sequence at a higher resolution.

[attachmentid=18870]

--------

This is working out well.

By using a simple Y translation action, I can duplicate and modify it for many different layers... changing the start and stop points etc.

I can then apply these to image layers of different "sections" to create internal structures and multiple "layers" in the 3D diagram.

I have noticed that where the image is against only black... the lines don't show up that well... don't see any way around this... if I increase the light intensity everything else will just get brighter.

-vern

Sphere's work

[attachmentid=18871]


Very nice render. What does it look like on the inside?

Here is the project file if you want to check it out. Hope I got everything. Should only need those two images.

This is a v13 project... sorry. Was using the PC for faster renders.

[attachmentid=18872]

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Mat!

Any chance I could get a copy of that sphere project? Would love to see how you got it. I wanted to have two of them crossing to create a spherical grid... like a death star projection (just an example... not a star wars freak).

-vern

I got the same results with your project:

[attachmentid=18873]

You can see the dark lines where the square room is. The geometry of the room probably makes it darker.

lol, I just deleted the sphere project. Just make two spheres (1 rotated 90 degrees from the other) and scale them to fit each other on one axis over time. I did a keyframe scale at frame 0, 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 29, and 30. The graph will look a hyperbola with a quick divergant angel.

Uh...

Mat? I understood everything up to...


I am thick when it comes to math.

Is a hyperbola some kind of soft drink?

-vern

I remade the project.

[attachmentid=18874]

That should work. It's v13 though

Thanks dude!

I have to say... this was the most fun thread in a while. I mean... like a day ago I had nothing... then bang... got a cool new technique...

fun stuff

-vern

to heck with the hyperbola... I wanna know what 'a quick divergant angel' is... and is she perty?


Cool stuff you guys got going here.

Ahhh, angle, not angel. My bad. I have to go look for a car, so I'll be out for a while.

I made the Grid sphere (two of the same sphere one rotated 90 degrees towards the other. It turned out pretty nicely:

[attachmentid=18877]

I also tried a different technique. This is with a material effector on Thoms model. It needs a little work.

[attachmentid=18878]

I'll probably do four material effectors; one going vertically, and one going horizontally.

Here's the project file so far.

[attachmentid=18879]

Oh... sounds like the women I go out with. They "diverge"... very quickly... sometimes through a bathroom window... during the first date.

-vern

Okay, Here's the latest image I did with Thom:

[attachmentid=18882]

Here's the project file:

[attachmentid=18883]

I used the same technique on a model of a head. It looks really awosome.

[attachmentid=18884]

Here's that project file

[attachmentid=18885]



---------

Here's some pipes I pulled off of the A:M CD:

[attachmentid=18887]

This thread is amazing. I wish I understood what you guys were talking about, lol.

Here's some more 3 axis renders.

Chairs:

[attachmentid=18897]

I'm having too much fun

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Hydrant:

[attachmentid=18898]


Phone Booth:

[attachmentid=18901]

Osprey:

[attachmentid=18904]

I liked the way the Osprey model looked so I decided to make this:

[attachmentid=18906]

I get it... I think...

Mat,

Are you using a material that animates over time the same way as moving an image using the extreme light to get the wireframe effect?

Does that sound right?

Has to be... that is very cool... I never would have even thought of that. This is cool. It gives the EXACT SAME look I was going for on mesh models... probably a lot less work too... expands the options tremendously.

Yeehaa.

Oh man.... i just had an inspiration for using this to do some kind of cool... teleportation effect... this is fun. Reminds me of Tron... when whats his name gets digitized into the whatsit.

-vern

This is clever stuff ,looks like magic to me