Hello All,

After completing the TAoA:M I decided to take a few days off. Now I am back at it beginning the process of the Boot Camp. I am still learning the function curve angle of this program so any advice on that front would be appreciated. I am posting my first attempt at the cycle ball bounce. It's only 20 frames long and I think it still needs to be tweaked but I would like some extra eyes for crits.

Thanks for any help given everyone,


Leo


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Good feel for acceleration. The bounce action is believable, what is not believable, however, is the squash; it's too much. Try not to go beyond 40% squash.

Great first try

Dahr is right on... the squetch is almost double what it needs to be. Tone that down and you're golden.

Good work!

Thank guys. I couldn't agree more. I wanted some more eyes on it, which is why I posted that first version. It just didn't look right to me, but you how it gets. You start working on something and get so involved that you sometimes get blinded to common things.

Well anyway, here's the toned down version. Now onto the next ones.





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You can go on to the next exercise if you feel you got what needed from this one. Something is still not quite right with the bounce. My suggestion for this one is to tone down the stretch as well. Maybe a 60% stretch and a 45% squash ?

This is what I love about this forum, it's like working at a large production company where you get input from many, many people - without having to worry about payroll

Dhar,

Your right. Something still didn't look right. I tried the settings that you suggested and it seems alot better now. I have attached it. Your right about the forum though, its great to be able to post things and get feed back that is constructive. When I was in school we really only got feedback from the instructor and most of the time the students would be sarcastic and such. I am sure you know the type. (It sucks, I don't like it and etc...) Most of the time they couldn't tell you what was wrong other than the fact that theirs was better.
To me animation is a constant learning process. There is always someone out there that you can learn from and it benefits to show your work so that you can have that chance.

Again thanks for the crits,


Leo

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Yessssssssss! Now you can put a fork in it

Good job.

I am working on the two ball bounce now, and am working strictly with the heavy ball. I am going for a ball bearing weight feel and something doesn't seem right here. I am going to add a little roll away to the right for some added feel but for some reason the bounce looks off to me. Is there a way that I can make the ball roll. I have tried different approaches and it seems that the rotation is attached to the null at the bottom. I dont want to change the null or anything though.


Any crits would be more than welcomed.


Leo

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Hi Leo, great to see you continuing on with animation.

I think the spacing and timing is working very well.

There's one important "bounce" detail I'm missing and that's a "contact frame" before the squash.

Make it so that the last frame before the squash has the tip of that stretched ball touching the ground. This does two things:

-it makes the squash right after it look less poppy
-it makes the ball be not in exactly the same position on the frame before and after the squash (which makes the squash look even more poppy). OUr eye melds those two together and doesn't connect the squash frame in the middle.

a "pop" is a sudden one-frame movement that isn't prepared for or explained by what's come before it. (my rough definition)

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the advice. I added that contact to the two ball bounce exercise that I am working on and it has made a difference. I see now what you mean about the popping. It actually makes it feel like the ball is being compressed by the ground.

Thanks again,

Leo

Been working on the Two Ball Bounce and am posting the progress.
I also received an email from Amazon today informing me that my copy of "The Animator's Survival Kit" shipped and will be here on wednesday. Totally cool, because I can't wait. I have heard some many good things about that book and am surprised that it wasn't required at my school. Crits and comments as usual are welcomed.

Thanks

Leo



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Hey Leo, glad to see your so enthusiastic about this. The Animator's Survival kit is a GREAT resource, it's all very easy to understand, and it has fundementals of almost anything you could want.

I'm pretty new to the community, but I've learned a lot from my own studies and from the words of everyone here. I want to get more involved, so I'll do my best in my critiques.

The silver ball has improved over the first early post of this excercise, adding that last little bounce at the end helped it a lot. There is one thing between the two balls that is bothering me at this point. The silver ball falls much faster than the yellow ball. Assuming both balls are standing still and being dropped from the first frame, they should both fall and accelerate at the same speed. Gravity dictates this. The silve ball falls much faster than the yellow one in your render, which means that it's either defying gravity, or the silver ball was dropped/thrown from a point in time before the first frame.

The yellow ball is stretching too early. It's getting some solid stretch in before it's gained any downward velocity. The stretch should probably start around frame 7, and move from there. Also, the acceleration/deceleration going up from the first bounce is off. I drew a line at the bottom of the ball for each frame as it goes up in this image:



If you look at the lines, the ball makes small steps coming out of the bounce, then moves faster in the middle, then slows as it should near the top. The ball should be moving fastest as it comes off the ground, and slows towards the top. Also, at the frame where the ball is at in the image is the first frame of downward movement. The ball makes an unnaturally quick movement and then resumes it's bounce.

Hope the critique helped. If any of the more seasoned animtors disagree with me, please follow them first. They know more than I do at this point, but then again, that's why I'm here

Bobby pretty much said it. I'm going to wait untill you get the Survival book, because once you read thru it and tweak your bounces according to it, you'll see exactly where you need to tweak.

Happy reading

I actually got it tonight. I was surprised because it wasn't supposed to get here til tomorrow. Now all I can think about is wanting to sit up all night and read it but unfortunately, physical therapy wiped me out today coupled with the fact that I only got about 3 hours asleep last night and I am going to wait til morning and then read it.

I knew there was something off with the bounces but I figured after staring at night for a while, I wanted more eyes on it. I appreciate all the feedback you guys are giving me.

Well I am going to read a little of the book and then start fresh tomorrow.

Thanks again Dhar and Lynx-O for the crits.


Leo

Here's an update on the Two Ball Bounce. I am still working the actual squash and stretch but right now I am having the most problem with trying to get the yellow ball to fall with the speed that is needed. I am using the function curves and maybe I am just not adjusting correctly.

Crits and advice needed and welcomed.


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The curve needs to be like that of a half circle. The ball accelerates up, then slows down at the top, then accelerates downwards same as it did upward.

here's a crude illustration, red is what you have now, yellow is where you need to be.

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Thanks Dhar. I am tweaking the curves now but I am also having to move keyframes around as well. Thanks for the drawing as I am more of a visual person and seeing the diagram helps me to be able to put into perspective.

In the Survival book, pages 36-39 tells you all about bounces

The fall speed is looking better, as for the yellow ball's bounce, there are still some issues. Here are two screen captures from my PW on my single ball bounce project seen in my bootcamp thread:


Here I zoomed into two points of contact and once bounce from the Y axis. The smooth curve, as Dhar suggested, shows that the ball moves fastest as it meets/leaves the ground and slows down to a stopping point in the air. Compare with your yellow ball's Y axis, let us see a screen cap if you could, it'd give us a better idea of whats going on.


This shot is zoomed out on the graph, showing the overall arcs of my Y axis bouncing. It should be smooth and gradual to the end.

Hope this helps. The PW is so extremely powerful, and I've only recently begun to tap it's power. It's definatly one of A:M's best tools.

Thanks Dhar for the reference pages in the survival guide. Thanks Lynx-O for the diagrams. I think my main problem was I was trying to control everything with a very limited number of keyframes and curves. I see now I have to add some more frames and tweak the curves from there. I will post a progress later tonight.


Leo

Been a few days since update. Been busy unfortunately with physical therapy and such and looking for a new job as well as a house. Here's an update on the Two Ball Bounce.
As usual crits and comments welcomed.

Leo

Two Ball Bounce

First big I see is why two balls of entirely different materials (rubber and chrome steel?) are bouncing at exactly the same frequency.

The bounces look good themselves, it's just that usually materials that would 'spring' back would bounce more times before stopping.

Keep goin!

MMZ,

I get what your saying. I should make the rubber ball a little longer just to make it more realistic right?
I really didn't even notice it until you pointed it out.

Thanks

Leo

only thing i see is that you need some more keyframes on its way bouncing up itll give the ball a little more time to slow down and wont give it a snappy look....other wise it looks really good exept for the thing MMZ pointed out....really well done!

Nice bounces! The only thing I would add to the comments that have already been given are 1. If it is a steel ball in should barely bounce at all and come to a stop very quickly. and 2. Both balls should also roll a little bit after they stop bouncing. Right now they seem to stop dead. If the ball on the right was actually made of something that would bounce that much, it would also have a bit of squash and stretch. Keep up the good work!

Paula

Here's the Pendulum exercise. I know that I went out of order, but I needed a break from bouncing balls for a bit so I decided to skip ahead and do this one just for something different.

Well back the those AWESOME bouncing balls

Leo[attachmentid=14931]

Hi Leo,

That swing is looking really great. I've been staring at it for a while and the only thing I've found is that the pendulum seems to come out of both extremes (when you loop it of course) a little too fast. When I mean a little, I mean a little, maybe just adding one more frame "hugging" the extremes will work in easing it out. But I'm being really nitpicky.

Nice work!
-Josh

Josh,

I can see what you mean. I set this one up with just three frames and was controlling all the easing with spline slope handles. I never really like how the arm came out fast. I am probably going to go back in and tweak it later. Don't worry about being too picky. I appreciate you taking the time to look it over and comment.

Thanks again,

Leo

The easein-easeout look better on the right side than on the left.

The rotation channel should look like a sine wave and I'm guessing the slope around the movement at the left swing isn't smoothing out like the slope onthe left.

A good exercise would be to show the pendulum dying out over several cycles. Easy to do once you understand the channel editing.

But I think you did this movement well, it's real close.

Here's the Two Balls bouncing across screen. The red ball actually has a rotation channel on it so I ended up using a combination of both the scale and squetch controls to achieve the actual squash and stretch. I was really having a hard time with this one and then I remembered that I have the Animate cds by Cristin McKee from Anzovin studios. I went back and watched her examples and figured out what I was doing wrong. As usual crits and comments welcome.


Leo

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Hey Leo, The arcs look good.

here are three points...

1:I know not everyone swears by it, but I think Richard Williams is really on the right track when he says to put the ball in contact with the ground and stretched right before the squash. Without the ball down on the ground for two frames our eye kind of ignores it, and leaves it out of the sequence.
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We've all seen bouncing balls so we "know" the ball on the ground is supposed to be part of the motion, but this is a principle that goes beyond bouncing ball: If we stick something way the hell out there for just one frame it probably isn't going to "read" as part of the motion; it will look more like just a "pop"

2: the ball is only stretching vertically, not in the direction it is traveling.
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Now, you're asking "how do i fix that when the ball only squashes and rotates from the bottom , not the center?" Well, you can keyframe that ball anywhere you need to on any frame you need to. The computer only gives you approximate inbetweening, you still have to go in and fine tune it. Use A:Ms onion skin to see many frames on the screen at once and check your paths and shapes.

3: the blue ball is always rising and falling in about 12 frames no matter how high or low it has bounced. Gravity makes that impossible. The red ball may have this problem too, but I haven't counted frames. I'll leave that to you.

Thanks Rob, I see what you are saying. I will tweak and re-post once I have a new version done.


Leo

Ok, I went back in and made some tweaks. Fix the scale so that it follows the rotation channel. I tweaked the timing a bit on both balls. I am posting two files here.
Version A has no contact pose but seems to me to move pretty fluid.
Version B has contact poses but seems to move like its being forced.

Any crits and comments would be appreciated. I would like to close this chapter. I know I have it down with this exercise, it just seems I am forgetting to tweak something somewhere.

Leo

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Hi Leo,
First off I think both are pretty good, the larger ball works well without any squash and stretch.

The orange one is a harder call. I think you have the timing right on the first one, so inserting an extra frame on the ground doesn't help the flow. For me, there is two(too) large a change of position between the frame before the contact, the contact and the frame after contact, causing a flick between positions rather than a nice flow. Like Robocat says,


If you look at sequence A, this shows the pre-contact, contact and post contact frames. I think if you change the position of the ball on the post-contact frame to closer to the ground, and slide the frame after that back,(seq then the eye will have longer to read the position.

Anyway thats what I think

Chris


My Bootcamp!

What I notice on ex. b is that the red ball touches the ground in default shape instead of the stretched shape, That's probably what's giving you the "forced" look.

It's good you see it looks wrong! It looks forced because you didn't do this



The ball is not stretched when it contacts the ground. What we have is a round ball on the ground followed by a squash. The round and the squash are so similar it makes the ball look stuck to the ground. Don't make the squash any more squashed, but the stretch does have to be stretched. Merely not squashed won't work. That last stretch frame should not be any less stretched than what came before.

(Richard Williams... short for The Animators Survival Kit, a manual of methods, princicples and formulas for classical, computer, games, stop motion and internet animators. Read it, devour it.)

Thanks guys,

Rob, I was reading that part last night. I think the problem I caused with Seq B was on the initial stretch contact frame, the ball was passing through the floor, so instead of moving it back and keeping the stretch I had on it, I just squashed it down. I really didn't think it would work and it didn't. I am going to correct that and re-post it. BTW, I love that book, I am about half way through it but am always going back to read sections over. I have even taken to highlighting things that I spot that I want to remember easier. Thanks so much for recommending it.

Once again thanks Chris, Dhar and Rob for taking the time to crit.

Leo

Here's the latest Two Ball Bounce. I went back in and added better contact frames and tweaked a little bit more. Crits and comments welcomed as usual.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to crit me. It is much appreciated.

Leo

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Here's an update on the Pendulum exercise that I did earlier. I tweaked the first frame's curve to make it move smoother. Crits and comments welcomed as usual

Leo

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Hi Leo!

I think you nailed the bowling ball! Good job!

With the red ball I think the 'take off' frames are too extreme for the amount of potential energy it gatherers on the way down. Of course it's always good to have the 'take off' frame off the ground, but I think you have it too far off the ground here. Oh, and also try and work on pointing the tip of the red ball towards the arc.

Looking really nice! Keep it up.
-Josh

Here's another take on the Pedulum animation. At the suggestion of Robcat, I did a pendulum dying out after several cycles.

Leo


Pendulum Dying

Nice job, Leo. Right near the end one of the swings doesnt go quite far enough I think.

Chris

one odd thing I notice is that as it is dying out it seems to swing farther to screen left than it does to screen right