Here's the start of the Tin Castle proxy. I'm going by the animatic....there are some flowers in the foreground, but I assume the proxy doesn't need them. Let me know how it looks.....

Ken
it looks great I would like to see the castle sitting on the highest mountain and the rest below it however.
Thanx
BobT

I updated it. Some of the closer hills look bigger but it's just an illusion. Is this ready to put onto the svn site? If so, how do I go about doing that? Also, what should I name it?

ken
the mound the castles on has too be much higher.More like this when your done email it to me Ill get it on the svn Also use a longer lens to add perspective in chor.
Thanx
BT

How's this Bob? If it's ok, I'll email it along to you. You could even modify it yourself to your taste.....

On the nosey.Please email
BT

Ken, are you going to model the finished set too?

I will. I have the castle here. Someone else made it already (can't remember who)....I'm just trying to cut the splinage down....using normal maps amongst other things. Why do you ask?

Because I'm Set Manager for this set. I won't get in your way. I'm just supposed to make sure it gets done, and that the dotproject site is kept up to date on it.

I'm not going to give you any notes or critique. You seem to have everything covered. But if you need anything, or have any problems at all, just let me know.

I'm having a little trouble with my dotproject access right now, but as soon as it's straightened out, I'll assign the tasks to you and e-mail you the links.

Tin Castle is a crossover for the Set Managers. Lazlo has it for the External while Ken has it for the detail and the internals. If you want to merge and share - then thats up to you guys

Cheers

Oh, I didn't realise. I'd like to finish the castle and then I can send it to you for assembling into the set if you want. Then I'll get started on the internals....

I didn't realize you were doing the interiors. If you aren't doing the exterior past the proxy, then yeah, send me the proxy when you're done with it, and I'll make sure it gets finished.

With thanks to David Walker who modelled this originally, here's the start of Tinman's castle. The rooves will be done with normal/displacement maps. There are some render errors....roof shapes look blocky but render ok closer up...but it's still an alpha.
Brainmuffin, I'll get this onto the svn so you can start working with it.

Wow - thats very nice guys.

Cheers

Ok, Ken. I'll take a look at it. I'm going to be downloading the SVN stuff on monday.

Ken, would you be interested in a Set Manager's meeting? We could get together with the other set managers in a chat room or a voice chat or something, and see if we can all get on the same page as far as figuring out dotproject, the production schedule, modeling standards, etc.

Dave, do you know when the final sets are expected due? Any rough idea what kind of timeframe we're looking at? If i had a rough idea, I'd be a bit more comfortable, knowing how I should pace myself.

A set-manager meeting...sure. In the community window seems like a good place to start.
I imagine this castle would be extended with more towers and an entrance. Also, the tower on the left has no entrance.....maybe a bridge leading from another tower to it would be good. But it's in your hands now.
I'm now officially on the interiors and will set up a thread on it soon.

PS Could someone possibly move this thread into the Sets area? Cheers.

Hi
same statement as for the interior threads
but here we should work out the tin-castle outside

Al

Hi Jody

Welcome to the castle thread suite ! I know , I'm fuzzy with keep thing in place...
hehehe !




I think I'm the guy to answer that kind of question... so stick with Bob's sketches about gardens etc
You got the top view plan he did ?
If you can modify the outside castle so it can hold those space...
Again ,every thing that don't touch the blocking animation work can be modified an improve.




Good idea, go ahead...

Also maybe you can use the same tower tip ?as a choreo shortcut ...that way we save time and power for other effect ?



ok cool...



Jody, You can ask question and all your concerns to everybody , and everyone is welcome to express their view .
I just want to remind that , at this time , I'll be the guy who'll get you with the final word.
So you won't lost your time arguing with everybody point of view...
Those point of view welcome of course!
I'll be with you and everybody on that thread to help until an advise of change

Later
Al

Al,


Currently I am building the castle in the choreography just as you asked. The screenshots are from the choreography window.


This is how I am doing it now. I am also making backups so I don't loose work or if I need to go back.


It was already built into my drawbridge as far as the dynamic chains (on the chains) and the open close motion slider. So I had the rigging done about a month or two ago when I did the drawbridge by itself.


That was what I was thinking, the exterior wall and push the towers themselves back to give room to enclose them.


I had not seen those sketches before. As an option to get the garden in, could we make two drawbridge entrances? One is the one Woot comes in and the other is the one where they cross the garden to leave?



Sounds like a plan to me.

I will update the SVN folder 'Shared Data\Models\Set_chors\Tinmans Castle' with the various tower models, choreography,etc and the project file that puts it all together. I will put a '_1b' at the end of the filenames so nothing gets overwritten.

Ok great!

Does they leave the castle by the garden ?
Let me verify that...they shouldn't but...

PS : confirm when SVN will be updated so I'll take a look

huh? I always have to edit my messages ! a chance !


Later
Al

Yes, they leave the castle by way of the garden, you do not see it when Woot comes in. So we could assume it was a separate entrance/exit with another drawbridge.

I have updated SVN with my new models and project. I have not begun our discussed changes yet. I'll update again next monday. (unless you tell me different)

Thanks Al!

Jody

About your drawbridge concern
As shown on: Act 2 seq 01 Sc 18, They seem to use the same door

I see what you mean...

You know what ? build the castle as it appear on the animatic,
focus on what is needed... if it seem to have no side ,back or bird view of the castle don't work those unshowned parts... or make them rought ( for futur work,game etc. )... only what we need to show...
same thing for the nature around the castle..think of it from the camera point of view

About the garden, I think you should adapt the main building to receive this garden
enclosed inside the wall , near the main building or something like that.

... Add a side door on the main building to the garden ?
That way they can use the same drawbridge door to get out
...I think it's important to use the same drawbridge for the logic of this scene, to avoid confusion

Later, we should split this castle set into parts for specific scene ...like the garden, and the drawbridge...
So work your model with this in head, make the garden with his surrounding wall and the drawbridge as separate object will allow us more flexibility later on

If you need some sketches , I would provide you some.
but you can use and adapt Bob's latest plan

later
Al

Edit: the fact that we don't see the garden when they first come in doesn't bother me much...
there's a little glitch but the action can pass over that ...IMO

no problem with your time frame Jody
I'll look at that SVN and get to you later ( this week )

Thanks
Al

Sounds good, I had originally planned on trying to put the garden inside of the main tower and allow the windows to let the light in that way. Maybe we can make more windows or make them larger and closer together.

As you wish Jody !
I'm sure you'll find us a nice and inspired solution.

Surprise us ! be original !


Al

Al,

Going through the rough blocking animations, I noticed there is a BIG scale issue from Act 1, Seq 2, Shot 7 through Act 1, Seq 2, Shot 9. At shot 10, both Woot and the Tin servant seem to shrink by at least the Tin Servant's height. This drastically alters the scale of everything else by almost double. Suddenly the entrance door is VERY large indeed.

So, I'm going to go with what's in shot 10 and after, as this will make the interior corridors closer to fitting inside of the existing castle. Currently they won't fit no matter what.

I will be making main castle and it's towers larger to compensate, but I'll leave the drawbridge at it's current scale to match the proxy.

I believe there will need to be serious adjustments to shots 7 through 9.

I am basing my scale and the final castle hill and interior sets on the blocking shots from Act 1, Seq 2, Shot 10 onward. This includes having to rescale the throne room to match the shot scale that was done for Act 1, Seq 3, Shot 3. Also I will make it so that the garden is somehow 'outside' as there is dialog that specifically says "it's good to get outside the castle" and there is a shot of birds in a tree limb in the garden.

The drawbridge section of the castle will have to shrink by 50% from what it is now so the castle will contain my interior sets.

I'll post tomorrow with a few screenshots. As there is a lot of position verification now with towers and such.

Anyway, just keeping you up to date.

Cheers!

Hi Jody. If you need any help modeling, give me a bell. If you tell me what to do and give me a deadline, I'll get it done.

Here's some of Al's sketches from a while ago you mightn't have seen. I think they're great. You might be able to integrate some/all of them.[attachmentid=14959]

Wow! I haven't seen these drawings before.

Very fitting for the Emperor of the Winkies and I like the fact that the castle is not all tin. I would prefer to see lots of tin embelishments rather than everything made of tin or the Tinwoodman will get lost in the backgrounds. Having a contrast of materials would be more pleasing to the eye, I think, but that's just my opinion.

Nice work, Al!

I think that we should definately think about what parts of a shot can be matte paintings or layers--such as the Castle at a distance. Or what is outside a window.
Shot by shot, breaking it into the elements you need to composite the scene. otherwise a lot of work is done for nothing. An example is a proxy castle--couldn't that have always just been a sketch brought in as a scaled up Layer in A:M?

Those are other drawings I had never seen ken... *sigh*

Those will be great guides. Thanks!

I'll send you a line with some of the interior assignments when I get the structure worked out better. Then we will divide and spline!

You're right Jody... a good solution , Thanks for taking care of this



It look fine to me Jody,

Remember that we won't mess with the block anim...unless big scale mistake in block anim like the one you've mentioned upper

On special occasion we would be able to extract a special part of the set to fit with an
animation ...but the less the best.

Again that ! I know it's a rage ( marotte in french ??? )
... you'll probably ear it again a couple time

hehehe


Later
Al

Actually there isn't a proxy tin castle. It's the same in all situations. The camera wasn't going to get close enough to it to make it so detailed that it slows everything down. Apart from the door.
It's spline lite, but a layer would probably speed things up even more.

Well, you're right , but Is a matte painting would be a 3d render anyway ? So still need of a final castle outside...Or are you asking about hand painting ?



You're right , but at least the proxie castle has been usefull to build the final castle...just for that it justify , IMHO

the shot by shot breaking thing should be reserve to the animator ....that way they can fix if they want layer render , matte picture etc... in regard with their rendering time...and animation effect etc.
They'll still need the final set for that... tp pick up their picture from...

Al

I don't agree that you leave it to the animator to decide that he wants a matte painting in the background--maybe a job for the Technical Director--but importantly the art asset will have to be created. no--it isn't Just a render, though parts of it will start that way.

Rather than try to persuade you with words, I will have do give you an example

If I understand you correctly, Will, I agree with what you have suggested regarding backgrounds and proxys, for the most part. One thing to note though is that from the start we were told that matte painting was not to be used and that everything should be done in A:M.

Regarding backgrounds: If layers are used, which I believe is the best and most economical way to do it, then there is nothing wrong with starting with a sketch or scribble on a layer to temporarily indicate your background. The image on that layer can be swaped throughout the lifetime of the production to test different aspects of the shot. This makes great sense to me and is exactly the way that I thought we were going to do it. So long as the final background was generated in A:M it meets the original brief.

Foreground and probably alot of mid-ground objects would need to be 'live' models in order to interact properly with the characters, ie shadows, reflections, effects, etc. But using layers to keep choreography sizes reasonable and uncluttered makes sense. All the layers can then be composited afterwards.

Well guys

I would fully agree with what you said here and I don't want to be rough
but may I just remind you that here it's the Tin Castle thread.

Maybe this discussion worth a new thread ...
I want to stay focus on this one

I'll be please to get updated on those stuff elsewhere


Thanks for your understanding

Al

Here is the progress with the scaling issue and general structure of the Tin Castle Set.

Drawbridge section remained untouched. Castle and hill was scaled up 200%. Castle interior sections were adjusted based on blocked shots and the garden was reshaped some to compensate for the central circular building.

All the images here have had NO SCALING at all to the set or characters in the choreography, they are at 100%.

The first three images I'm uploading are high resolution renders of the castle. You can see the Tin Servant and Woot on the bridge of the overall shot and the scale shot.

[attachmentid=14994][attachmentid=14995]
[attachmentid=14996]

The next four images are of the Tin Servant and Woot in the various settings shown in the blocked shots. The fourth shot here is just to show scale of the doorway to the garden and the fountain. (This shot has not been blocked yet.)

[attachmentid=14997][attachmentid=14998]
[attachmentid=14999][attachmentid=15000]

I will be hitting the modeling hard this week. So I'll post again when I have interiors and exteriors with LOTS more details.

Strange. I copied all those door openings from the same original. Don't know why they're different sizes. Just scale that second one down....

I agree that there should be a wall round the inside of the moat. Behind that would be the garden. At the moment, the proxy with the garden wouldn't fit into the big central tower.
I don't know if it will be needed to have it in sync.....what with the camera cutting back and forth, but it would be nice.

PS I've a week off college this week, so give me some models to work on. I wouldn't mind that door.

Your approache look fine to me Jody
I like the tower roof !

Some suggest:
-Some more arch between tower would be nice
-adding some pillar(like on the corridor set) on every room like throne would help unifying the inside set?
I don't know maybe on door side ? in the corner?

Ken will be of good help ! super !

If you wish, you can put some tint or color and light , if this help in your final modeling
...not a lost of time , it would give a starting point to texturer and lighter



Al

Didn't Frank H. donate some of his architecture models to the "Extras" CD? Some of those might provide starting geometry for the castle garden or interior hallways?

Jody, you might also ask Roger Reynolds if he'll donate his train station? That's got some nice geometry.

I couldn't wait for you to contact me Jody, so I made a start on the door. So, slate me down for that.

Will do ken... I'll start focusing on ... work (blah, I said a four letter word)... I'll get some done on the train for the main tower.

The proxie interiors were out of scale with the characters, so I was more concerned with scaling each room to fit. I'll make sure all the doorways are equal.

Okay, it hasn't been 24 hours yet, but I'll post this anyway...

Progress was made on the center tower... I decided to do something a little different.

Instead of a typical walled in castle, this one has a garden INSIDE the main building. Part of the main building has been opened up to the outside a bit... large archways were added very close together. This makes the central tower asymetric and I think gives the castle even more character.

Also went with the extra walkways between the towers and also added handrails to give more detail. The handrails are suprisingly small on patch count (each upright is only 4 patches and each handrail is only 32 patches all the way around the towers) each footbridge is also modeled with the handrails.

I will start adding foilage and trees nearby the castle and see what extra rocks and such I can add near the moat for that authentic look.

I will also break out the upper hill and front lower part of the castle for a separate stage just for the drawbridge sequences after the final castle model is done. For the one shot where Woot looks up to the top from the door, we can use the full blown castle as only the set and some clouds need to be in the shot.

Here are two shots for you... One of the whole thing.

WARNING: This picture is 2048x4096!

[attachmentid=15024]

This next one is a zoom of where I had the Tin Servant for a handrail height guide.

[attachmentid=15025]

Wow! Nice touches. Really makes a difference. So, do you want a new door? If so, which model on the svn should I match it up with? I'm kind of lost with all the models mixed up together. (Shouldn't they be put into sequence folders?)

Also, would more towers add to the castle?

Edit: The garden inside is good. But the walls are curved. Inside the garden the walls are straight. So, one of them might need to change....

Edit2: What are those steaks at the end of the bridge made of? Wood? Tin? Also, a side bracing round the moat might look good.

Funny thing ken, if you look through the lower two arch windows that are really big, you can see the door that the characters enter the garden from the throne room.

The shot is Act 2, seq 1, shot 19, when they leave a doorway and go through the garden from the throne room. Bob had posted the floorplan of the castle and I've stayed pretty true to that plan, just rounded off one side (that you don't see in the shot) of the garden area.

I'll get with you in the community window and we can team up on this set a little better.

Spectacular Jody ! nice work

Can we get some flags and fanions ?

Edit : and some balcony...

Don't start on the throne room for a couple of day, I must verify some aspect first.
I'll come back to you on this asap

Ken's got good idea about the steak ? if it mean the chain attach on the bridge ?
I think there's enough tower..this castle begin to be huge !

later
Al

Hi gents,

I've been discussing with Al the possibility of building the throne room after being inspired by his wonderfully grand concept drawing based on the Neuschwanstein Castle throne room (actually I lke Al's much better than the real one). (Full disclosure; one reason it appeals to me is I think the lighting fixtures that the room obviously needs will work equally well in my railroad station). However there appears to be two potential deal breakers that need to be solved before I can agree to begin.

1) My hobby budget only opens once a year at my house and that's on my birthday in July so I can't upgrade to V13 until then. I would have to depend on someone else to take what I build in v12 and check it into SVN.

2) More serious is the discrepancy between Al's drawing and the image of the proxy throne room. As you can see from the attached image, Al's room is impressively royal in size (I estimate it's 90 ft long, 56 ft. wide and 35 ft. high; 27.5m x 17.1m x 10.6m) while the proxy is basically a large bedroom. If the blocking of the actors is such that the doorway and stairs have to be to the right and within spitting distance of the throne there's no way Al's will work and I wouldn't be interested.

Without trying to sound like a prima donna, would someone be willing to compromise the blocking and take care of my v12 models so I can build the throne room the way Al designed it (and the way I want to build it)?

You build it your way, Rodger! I will convert it to V13 and upload it for you

I'm pretty sure there's only one scene blocked out that requires the door. That could be redone easy enough from the opposite side of the room with the new concept. A few camera cuts and they can be up to the throne and we can use the blocking animation already done. No problem.

If you can't get anyone to upload the stuff, let me know. I'm sure Jody will do it though.

PS Jody, I didn't mean meet in AM:Community at that time. Let me know and we'll arrange a time.....

I'll start leaving it logged in... if I'm away or busy, just give a shout on the chat and I'll try to check it every 15 to 30 minutes.

I'd be honored to convert and upload anything Mr. Reynolds does...

The Tin Castle entrance as seen from Woots point of view.....