I'm sure most PC users do not follow the Apple OSX discussions very carefully. If you read the “Macintosh Development Blog” as part of the pinned “A:M for OSX” forum above, it seems to me that the V13 “Stability” initiative is really a code word for halting the technical roadmap on PC and concentrating on the stability of Mac.

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showt...45&#entry150253

Martin states:

“In reality, the Mac gets MORE specific development time than Windows, (though we do use Windows machines to develop new features - those are usually independent of the OS.) Mac development is simply more difficult than Windows development.”

And

“You guys may not see it, but when we take one of our best programmers (Yves) and put him on Mac Japanese language support for 4 months, he's not available for anything else.”

AM running on Windows is 80% of Hash’s business yet we seem to have come under the apartheid of a whining minority. Maybe there isn’t a “PC Development Blog” possibly because PC stability issues aren’t being addressed?

If Hash wants to take AM toward a Mac-centric application, they should let us know.

Read the “Macintosh Development Blog” and let Martin know what you think. Let him know that 80% of his customers want their issues addressed too.

I think you are stirring the pot for no good reason...

Yes. It seems to me that Martin started that blog to keep Mac users informed of some of the difficulties that were making development of A:M 13 slower for the Mac. Count your blessings.

It seems to me that updates and fixes come out pretty regularly for the PC side. For part of 2005 Mac users who had the latest version of the Mac operating system couldn't install A:M. PC users should count their blessings.

And look at it this way: Mac is 20 percent of the company's business. How many businesses can afford to cut off 20 percent of their customers? Can you afford to cut off 20 percent of your income? Even if you can afford it, do you want to?

Also consider that in the the graphics world, the Macintosh is the standard, not the PC. The Mac world is an opportunity for Hash Inc. to grow its business. Isn't a strong, growing, successful Hash Inc. better for all its customers?

Ooh macs standard of graphics world...ho ho I bite my lip. Its not the tools its the user. I can use any ok pc/kac I mean mac and come with some sweet stuff. Macs are pcs now anyways aren't they?

I have to agree with William and Paul on this.

Also, Hash do give the Windows platform a clear priority. In Version 12, both platforms share the same codebase and, as I understand it, this meant that they had to write libraries for the MAC to make it understand Windows calls. That is probably one of the reasons that makes MACs a harder platform.

Because both platforms share a common code base, many improvements made on the Mac OSX platform will immediately happen in the Windows platform as well. I am sure that Yves work on a Japanese A:M on a MAC will mean a Japanese Windows version as well. What I don't understand is how is Yves doing it in just 4 months?

Two points I would like to make.

First is that there have been some awsome advances to A:M in the last 12 months. The floating point, multi layered OpenEXR support and the compositor is something exceptional. I think most of us are still trying to catch up with the consequences of all this and yet we hear about more big things, like version control, are on the way. (I love version control.) I just cannot see how Hash are depriving Windows users of anything.

The second thing is that as a Windows user, I love the fact that A:M write multi-platform code rather then Windows-only code. I would hate to be locked into Windows forever. If they can port to Windows and MAC OSX, then if they chose to (ie someone aproached Hash with a truckload of money), they could port to other platforms like Linux. Very sensible to have that flexability.

I find the achievements of the Hash programmers stunning, and whatever they are doing, please don't change.

Richard.

I percieve Hash Inc is plotting to drop both PC and Mac support and will soon be going the way of Linux.

...of course I probably just imagined all that too...

(sorry Bruce... late night humor. Don't anyone take this serious. I am joking to better keep my real comments to myself.)

Code word huh?
Rodney

Bruce, you're talking textbook business sense, but you're leaving out on-the-ground marketing sense. A:M may sell more units every month than all of our competitors combined, but it's definitely not included in the mainstream of 3D products because it doesn't use polygons. In fact, A:M receives the same treatment in the 3D world that Macs receive in the computer world, (maybe worse. I'm not going to try and explain why those perceptions exist in this post.) A:Mers must justify themselves every time they meet a polygonhead, and it's tough, so a lot of our old-time users get tired and become hermits. Mac people are used to this kind of abuse, and frankly, are more bold about defending themselves. They often go against gangs of polyoners in their support of A:M!

Long Live the Mac! Hash can do no less than support the Macers who support us.

Frankly I can't understand why AM isn't more used in Mac circles. What with the "common cause" outlined by Martin above it seems to be a perfect match. Not only that, but most 3D programs aren't ported to the Mac (might be wrong on that) so surely this lack of choice would have them eating out of Hash's hand.
Perhaps more mac marketing is in order. That way Bruce mightn't feel so bad if the percentage is 50/50.

A couple of reasons. Horrifying reviews like these are one.

The Windows-y interface puts a lot of Mac users off as well. In general, any Mac app that violates so many Apple UI guidelines at once is a bad sign. A:M's an exception, of course, but we usually expect our apps to look like this, or this, or this. It's not that we're graphics snobs--just that, historically, the developers who bend over backwards to follow Apple's interface guidelines are also the one who make the best applications. So we tend to associate Mac-like GUIs with well designed, intuitive software.

Personally, I'd love to see Hash outsource the whole interface to Iconfactory, who as you can see are experts at this sort of thing. I'd chip in.

I am a little confused on why this post got started. I think that Bruce misinterpreted why martin started the Mac Blog. In my opinion, like I wrote in the mac blog, it is great that martin is letting his Mac users, few it may be, know why V13 will come later to them then for windows users.

It is just out of respect for his Mac users, and in now way is it a hit agains the windows users. It would be insane for martin to go strickly for Mac, his numbers say it all, and I do believe he is a smarter business man than that.

So I think that window users have nothing to freat about, A:M for windows will always be around, and it does no good to bash the Mac users, what you should be doing is supporting them, and supporting martins desicion to have a Mac version, so the software will remain affordable to everyone.

Yes Bruce. As John Stewart of the Daily Show says "Down with the people!-----who are already down----"

I don't really see the point of this PC vs Mac business (Hash-wise). I don't know, I'm just happy to have 3d software for $299. I have faith in Hash Inc-these guys live and breath the industry-they know what they're doing.

UPDATE: Hey, wow! I actually talked back to someone, I ussually sit on the corner and nod! This feels great!

I never got the feeling that the Win users were being shortchanged because of the Mac.

I've only seen the Win version of Maya, but is the Mac version of Maya anymore Mac "guideline"? That's the competition. Not Safari.

And if Maya in general is Mac "guideline" compliant then I'd say say that isn't something to be aspired to. It's 10 times uglier than A:M.

Looks like someone's fighting over who get's what first. No need to fight, v12 works fantastically. I'm not going to switch over (unless Yves can get HDRI working)

BTW I didn't know Yves was doing a Japanese version of A:M. That could open up a big market, though there would have to be a Japanese forum, cause I can't even speak Japanese. I'd have to respond "Na'ni" to everyone's post.

you wouldn't want to say THAT, Matt. They'd just keep repeating themselves! (Nani means 'what'.)

Wakarimasen, or Nihongo ga wakarimasen would be much better.

(I don't understand, and I don't understand Japanese.)

lol, Comes from watching too much anime.




Some people think this is anime>

No, probably not much. (I've never seen it.) But I'm sure you'll agree that "Our competition is even worse" is pretty weak. My point is that Apple prescribes "optimal" methods for an application to organize its functionality; when developers ignore them, they reveal, intentionally or not, that their Mac version is a low priority for them.

It's not like it has to be that way. Toon Boom Studio and World Of Warcraft were both PC applications whose Mac versions won Apple Design Awards.

A Japanese version of Animation:Master has been released right along with the English versions for quite a long time. As a matter of fact seeing A:M on the shelves at the LAOX electronic store in the Tokyo area was one of the reasons I finally broke down and bought A:M back in 1998.

Kudos to Yves for working on that side of the program of course.
Japanese A:M Users definitely command some serious respect in the A:M Community.
Its a shame we don't communicate better on the A:M International scene.

There has been a Japanese A:M Users forum for many years. Some useful downloads can be found there too. I'd guess it predates this one.

(ever off topic - love macs - hope someone [maybe my wife!] buys me one someday - then I could use it exclusively for A:M if I could beat off the kids)
Rodney

No I don't agree. It's an indicator of what's important to the market. There may be complaints that Maya is not Mac compliant, but I suspect it really isn't as big a deal as it's being made out to be.

I think what Mac users really want is for A:M to run and run stabily on their Macs. Not that it's buttons resemble the ones on their other programs.



I have Toon Boom. There isn't anything about it that makes me say "Wow, great interface". And it doesn't even work if I have my second monitor enabled.

Bruce,
Won't the "Stability" initiative help all users? It's one of the reasons I have stayed with A:M.

I was "this close" (fingers spread .5 mm apart) to leaving A:M for good.

The A:M programmers were able to address my problems, and continue to help when needed.

I disagree with the idea of blasting Martin for sharing information, kind of like when your kids tell you the truth instead of lying. You deal with that differently.

To everyone,
The entire Mac vs PC thing is really tiring. I don't care what OS a person chooses.
Why do we need to have the mentality that some of us are somehow getting the short end?
Yes there will be respondents from either camp claiming ownership to that proverbial end.

I've never seen these PC vc Mac arguments amount to ANY good, kind of like the Evolution vs Creation Diatribe, a big waste of time. Perhaps we could combine them?
After all aren't PC users more Spiritual than Mac users?
After all aren't Mac users more Spiritual than PC users?

Martin, (cool to know you're an EE from way back)
Is there a squeaky wheel syndrome at play here? The noisiest group gets the attention and focus?
One side raises the banner of injustice, so the other side has to or the absence is interpreted as apathy?
One side makes a comment implying Sole Proprietorship of the proverbial short end of the stick, and the other side has to contest it?

To self,
Go back to bed in a contemplative mode and be thankful for a loving wife, great kids and grandkids.

David

Indeed, the squeaky wheel syndrome does have a fair amount of clout at Hash. That's why we do anonymous voting in the Fellows area. I knew "stability" was an issue to some people but not until this year's vote did I find out that most users wanted to give up new features for a focus on stability, and the Fellows is dominated by Windows people. The Fellows want to change the perception of "stability" as much as anything else. How do we do that? Well, by letting the A:M Forum work some things out - like we're doing here. Sponsoring our own project and fixing things along the way - like TWO. Using an automated Error tracking system - like A:M Reports. And some internal Hash controversies about how much focus we can give to studios.

Actually, we want both, but you're right that we'll settle for stability. (Not that we have a choice.)

Interface guru John Gruber wrote at length about the mistaken impression that a GUI just is a set of pretty buttons in his essay "Ronco Spray-on Usability." Here, he's referring to Eric Raymond and the open-source approach to interface design:

This idea, that the hard work of development is in building the underlying foundation, and that the easy part is writing a “GUI wrapper”, has been the Linux/Unix way all along.
[...]
Well, allow me to retort.

UI development is the hard part. And it’s not the last step, it’s the first step. In my estimation, the difference between:

• software that performs function X; and
• software that performs function X, with an intuitive well-designed user interface

isn’t just a little bit of extra work. It’s not even twice the work. It’s an entire order of magnitude more work. Developing software with a good UI requires both aptitude and a lot of hard work.

I'm glad to hear that you guys are going to work on stability. Debugging takes the longest time. I hope you've put up lots of comments in your source.

Do you use C++ only, or do you implement Asembly to decrease the calculation time?

Martin addressed that one over here.

So no one wants to program it in assembly, or it is physically impossible? I used assembly for curv fitting from a series of matrixies. Calculation speeds on assembly had no comparison. They went 50 times faster than c++ and almost 100 times faster than Visual Basic (translation between the three was not hard at all). You don't have to use it for everything. Just create an assembly library that does monotinous calculations like matrix calculations.

I'm lucky as a PC user to not have so many OS changing updates. The last major update I had was Service Pack 2.

Doesn't assembly make it less portable? I think that's why it's programmed in C++......that and Martin says it's humanly impossible to do.
Though it would be nice if AM was 50 times faster....

Precisely what PC stability issues are being worked on?

Bruce,

You seem to be taking things to harshly as Luckbat is in the Mac Blog section. There is really no need to fight which OS is better. There both pretty damn good.


Dimos

wow!

Mac vs. PC AND polys vs. patches AND a:m stability in a single thread...

No no no no.

Are you having stability issues with the PC version? If so, send them into AM:Reports and they will be looked at. I have to say, it's pretty rock solid right now. But as bugs are discovered during the TWO process, I've no doubt they will be fixed.
Just because Hash isn't working on the PC version now (they might be though) doesn't mean they won't during the year. AM is bi-OS. Build a bridge. Get over it.

No Dimos, the discussion isn't about which operating system is better, the argument is pointless, it will be settled in the marketplace. I have offered no comparisons. My posting was a direct response to a call for a delaying technical progress on the Windows version. It appears that progress on Windows stability has indeed stopped.

Due to circumstances beyond Hash’s control, one of the two operating systems has made a significant change in architecture. This change represents a substantial technical challenge to the Hash programming team to maintain two equivalent versions. Those challenges are outlined by Martin and Hash programmers in the blog.

Looking forward, that same operating system will change again in the foreseeable future to accommodate an announced hardware change. Yes, as a concerned customer, I am questioning the business case to halt technical progress for 80% of their customers and taking on such a high technical risk to maintain the rest. If Hash were to halt technical progress to devote up to two years to creating a Linux version, I would be questioning that too. If the squeaky wheel syndrome does indeed carry a fair amount of clout at hash, I think it is time to squeak. The Mac community seems to never be shy, I’m hoping the Windows community recognizes what is happening and makes their opinion heard.

Hash is concentrating on stability for both platforms. Where did you get the ridiculous idea that they were only working on Mac stability?

I remind you that "stability" won out over "features" in the Fellows poll, and the Fellows are 80% Windows, too.

I just want to point out, for the benefit of the other readers, that this in your own interpretation. From my insider point of view, your conclusion does not match my own interpretation at all. And mre specifically, progress on Windows stability have not stopped. This assertion does not hold reality.


Another interpretation which is way beyond reality. The reality is that, by far, the first biggest "significant changes in architectures" was caused by the integration of OpenEXR and render layers in A:M. This was not Mac or Windows related at all. The biggest challenge was switching from Visual Studio 6 to Visual Studio 7 (or VS NET) (Hey Vern, here is your anecdote concerning development on Windows). Compared to those two challenges development on the Mac is a leasure ride. Really.


It seems that your whole argument edifice is constructed on the assumption that we "halt technical progress". Since this root argument is false, everything else does not hold.

Perhaps is was the post just before mine. I've have asked a number of times what stabiliy issues are being worked on the PC side. KenH's and luckbat's responses of nothing have been my only answers. Doing nothing is not adding to the Windows version stability. I voted for stability and I assumed both platforms would make progress.

Actually I didn't say nothing is being done. I said I don't know. But Martin has said that they're working on the reported bug list....ie stability.

All I said was, even though A:M is cross-platform, it's developed entirely on PCs (according to Martin), then tested on Macs, and tweaked for MacOS-related conflicts, if any. Under those circumstances, I don't see how Windows A:M development could ever be halted.

Keep in mind...

Some "issues" may be platform independent. A "fix" on Win or Mac is a fix for both in some cases.

They would have to go back to the "source code" which is where some problems would originate.

Some issues I have found in the past existed on both platforms.

Am I wrong on this?



WoooHooo!

I knew there had to be at least one.



Vernon "!" Zehr

I will answer the title... This Windows user thinks that if Hash wants to focus on stabilizing the Mac software over a new major release, more power to them. Stability is what keeps customers and keeps the word of mouth going. Even if it is a Mac

I found this by Googling for "maya mac screenshot":


One thing that stands out is that the entire application being enclosed in one window is an obvious holdover from Windows. Except for the look of the flat gray buttons, which are purely cosmetic, there isn't all that much that's distinctively Windows-like about A:M's UI on the Mac. It's not much different from Adobe software on the Mac.

I can understand why Will Sutton would miss having the 11.0 interface, and even as a Mac user, I have to ask why the Mac and Windows versions of A:M can't have separate UIs that look considerably different from each other. I really would have liked the orange highlighted buttons from the toolbar in the "Office XP look" interface to have carried over into later versions, because with the current UI, it's sometimes hard to tell which buttons are depressed and which arent. With buttons like mirror mode or animate mode, this can cause serious problems.