Okay. Everyone is busy modelling characters and sets. Riggers are busy building rigs and putting them into the models. Everything is moving forward and what am I doing? Cutting grass! Well, playing around with it anyway. It's all for the sake of testing the boundaries.

Here though is an example of a 40 metre x 40 metre area of 10 cm grass. Compression makes it look a bit naff but it looks pretty good in the 100Mb version.

EDIT: Uh! I compressed the video to Mp4, it was the only codec that would handle decent compression of something as busy as grass, but they can't be uploaded here. Oh, well.

EDIT 2: Following Luckbat's guidance I changed the file extension and the file uploaded okay. I tried playing it from here and it didn't work. I guess you could download it and change the extension back to mp4. All my attempts to compress it with QT were just too blured, too choppy or the filesize was way too big. Mp4 reduced the image to 320x240 but the quality wasn't too bad and the filesize was amazing. Too bad it doesn't work here.

I am following Bob's and Alain's example now and will be posting proxey sets shortly, instead of attempting the finer details too soon.

Umm. The trees in the foreground below are not to scale. that grass is only 4" long ;-)

Strange. The old forums definitely allowed mp4s.

In any case, try changing your file's extension to .mov. The forum should allow you to upload it, and Quicktime will play it normally.

Looks great Paul (I had to change the mov to mp4 to see it). I wonder if the grass is dynamic? I sense it's an image though. I'd love to have a scene where the gang walk through and interact with long grass.

I remember that stuff before it was covered with white flakes today...nice ..I too had to change it with save as to view

The proxey sets should start appearing tomorrow. I will be using very little, if any, materials in them and therefore foliage will be simple stand-in geometry, just to give the right impression of mass, as Robcat requested. My experimenting has led me to the conclusion that hair particles need to be used very carefully to get the best effects with minimum render hit. It would be very handy if we could turn individual hair groups on and off rather than all or nothing. Also it would be very useful if we could control the placement of different hair materials from within a single decal. Perhaps using a colour picker to associate one hair material with one colour and another hair material with another colour. That way many types of plant could be placed within an environment, driven by just one map. Well I can dream can't I?

This image is a first pass at the Big Tree set which will become a slightly simpler proxey set tomorrow. I just put the grass in there as a quick test. It's a mess and it wasn't a quick render either. An hour and a half for a 4 pass render. Yuk! Remember textures and models are not final.

Hi, Ken. I haven't tried the dynamics on this yet. I have been wanting to do a convincing field of swaying grass for a long time but dynamics were never up to the task before. I'm hoping that things have improved since I last tried.

Hi, John. You've got the white stuff, do you? They said we would get it this weekend too but I'll believe it when I see it.

Thanks, guys!

Nice setup Paul !
I like the trunks very much ! and trees


PS: have you post your files somewhere so we can use it too ?

Al

It's all looking pretty good to me. I love that sweep up on the prairie grass. It looks great. The set looks good, but the Scarecrow looks smaller in your set than in the ref.

Fantastic Paul!!!! Theres a lot on your shoulders this stuff is tuff but your off to a wonderful start.I just love it!
BobT

Thanks, Al. I will be posting the grey version later today.



Thanks, Zaryin. Okay, I'm teaking the arch through the tree and a few other things. I'm sure it will change significantly by the time we get to the production models.



Okay! Thanks, Bob!
If the captain's happy I'm happy. :-)

Okay. I should have said later this year...just!

Here are some shots of the proxy sets that I have done so far. They are pretty 'toony' right now because they are simple proxeys but once all the camera angles have been finalised I will know what will be in-camera for each shot and can concentrate on refining those areas. They are probably too heavy for proxeys but the directors can crop them, and remove, or turn off, materials and decals if required. I have sent the models to Bob who, I hope, will be sending me a list of any missing maps and any alterations that are needed.

Big Tree proxey:

[attachmentid=12671][attachmentid=12672]


Landscape6:

[attachmentid=12673][attachmentid=12674]


Act 2 Landsacpe 5: I want to make a detailed model of this set, with lots of twisted roots and gnarley bark on the fallen tree/bridge and a deeper gorge and more sky under the tree, closer to Bob's drawing, but I will wait to see the camera angles before getting carried away on the detail.

[attachmentid=12675][attachmentid=12679]

Badlands Approach:

[attachmentid=12676][attachmentid=12678][attachmentid=12677]

Here is an unfinished render that gives the game away but I like it's 'other worldliness'.

[attachmentid=12680]

And here is 9 seconds of geraniums. Excited? I thought not. Just another test for woodland components.

[attachmentid=12681]
[attachmentid=12682]

Paul your work is looking great !
BT

These images show so much promise! I like the art design to it, and the realizing is well done.

I'm curious, since the sketches worked off were B&W is there an overall color-scheme approach to the film going on too? Is someone balancing all that out, and lighting ideas?

Thanks, Bob and Dearmad!

Take no notice of my colours. The sets just looked too unbalanced with coloured foliage and everything else grey. I guess I should post images of grey sets too.

The directors can play about with lighting and turn off the decals and particles if neccessary. These are just starting points and I am sure they will all look very different in the final version. I am aiming for natural colours but with an impressionists mix eventually.

I need to talk to Bob about the Badlands set. I am a little curious as to what sort of terrain and climate we have here. Is that plant on the left tropical? Is it just a giant weed? It seems foreboding, suggesting that something nasty lurks that way or danger is near. Is that swamp gas wafting through the air from a nearby hot and humid steam forest or mist from a nearby waterfall? The distant landscape in Bob's drawing looks like Arizona, red rocks, but could be anything I suppose. Hmmm. Hippogyraf country. Could be anything.

Anyway, expect everything you see here to change.

Here is an unattractive test-movie which shows the Tree-bridge set as it was at one stage:

[attachmentid=12686]

I told you it was ugly! I was just testing stuff.

Paul, you're doing a fantastic job, these look great.

Wow !!!

Thanks, Mark and Ed!

Here is an example of how much can change with a simple background swap:
There are a couple of new plants in the foreground too.

[attachmentid=12694]
____________________________

And here are some early texture tests on some proxey canyon walls:

[attachmentid=12695]

Not nice!

Wow Paul - great work.

I take it these are the proxies that you have sent to Bob?

Cheers

Super coool....Wowow you keep going and going and going............

michael

David and Michael, thanks for the wows! Much appreciated.

David, the proxies that I have sent to Bob are the ones that match Bob's drawings which he has titled: landscape5act2, act2 big tree, landscape6 and act3 badlands.

I should have the other 3 on the list ready for approval before tomorrow night. That is landscape1, landscape act2 and landscape4, as Bob has named them.

can't wait to play inside there, Paul.

You really have brought those 2D scenes to life. Very impressive.
You are quick too!

Beautiful stuff Paul...



I'm hoping that v13's dotProject notations can be used to identify suggestions like these.
I think you've just made one of the first production related feature requests (outside of rigging and the Squetch rig of course).
I think I will just sit here and savor the moment...

Rodney

Thanks, Paul and Rodney!

Not beautiful yet but I'm sure that by the time we finish this movie it will all look just right. Lots of decisions for the art directors to make but meanwhile the animators have got somewhere to play.

I am still in TWO minds about particle leaves and I look forward to seeing what the lighting director can achieve and what his conclusions are.

[attachmentid=12719]

Some tree variations.

those trees are wonderful .
BT

Paul,

I think the trees look wonderful! Even though I will want to change some colors in the texturing phase, they have a fun style to them.

But I have concerns about particle leaves if we are going to use raytracing lights. Particles/hair render either extremely slowly or poorly with raytrace lights. Unless we use multipass, the results will be unacceptable (to me anyways). But multipass will take forever to render.

If we are not going to use raytrace lights, I will be very disappointed. Z-buffered lights make things look very dreary and overcast.


Can you do a test render of some of the trees with a raytracing light to get an idea of how they will look rendered that way and let us know how long it took?

Thanks,
Jim

Particle hair doesn't seem to be working in the current v13 alpha (yeti pc) at least for me it doesn't.

With "light lists" you can specify the trees to use zbuffer shadows while other things in the scene use raytrace shadows.

You know, I don't think that I have tried light lists yet. Now is good time to try. I'll do some tests and see how it goes. I usually settle for just one ray cast from one Klieg light but do you have a preference? Also how many passes would you like?

Another thing that has been playing on my mind, regarding the detail in the models and the maps, is the final render size of the movie. What is the target image size for final renders?

Do we have a render farm ready and waiting to do some heavy rendering tests?

This quickly assembled location uses at least 20 trees and several bushes, all of which use particle foliage. There is also a strip of large particle trees in the background. I should have rendered to DV resolution, I guess.

[attachmentid=12740]


I'm not sure why the little sappling has rendered as dark blocks. I will have to look closer at that tomorrow. The yellow sky was just dropped in via Photoshop because I had rendered that image with alpha.

The bushes were quickly thrown together for this test and have not been groomed properly.

[attachmentid=12741]

Thanks, Paul. Even one light adds so much to a scene. The fog does wonders also.

Those render times are encouraging. I think I was worried based on my own Mac system's render speed (or lack of it) with particles and raytrace shadows.

Jim

I had an email from Bob to say that Martin wants these rendered at 1920 x 1080 so I have set one rendering at that resolution. I took out the problematic sappling and replaced it with an old character tree that I started and abandoned months ago. It appears to use a material, or a high bump map value, which is making it look ugly but this tree wouldn't be used anyway. There are lots of things that are wrong with this scene but as it is only a test I'll let it go.

First pass has finished and took 37 minutes so a 4 pass render is going to be upwards of 2.5 hours per frame for a scene with this much particle foliage. I think we could lose alot of the distant particles in a shot like this, replacing them with cookie-cut bushes, but these decisions can not be made until we know what the camera is doing.

I also received news about the render farm but I will leave that to the directors to tell you about.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Okay here it is:

Oh, wait a minute. the jpg is over 2 Mb so I'll have to compress some more ...

[attachmentid=12764]

Almost exactly 2.5 hours to render 4 pass, 1 ray and lots of particle foliage on a 3.2 GHz P4.

I will continue experimenting with different setups, reducing the amount of particle foliage, and see if we can get that render time down as much as possible. I have some forest proxeys to do for the animators first but we have got a houseful of revelers coming around in a couple of hours so until next year ... have an enjoyable last day of 2005 and celebrate the new year in whatever way suits you. Happy New Year!

Paul looks great. On mid range trees, how about a combo of decaled canopies (scaled smaller than hair emitter) and low density hair.

Thanks, Mark, but I'm already using that technique.

It would be useful if the density could be set differently for each object. At the moment you have to create a new material if you want to use it in a scene with more than one density. I am going to send some requests to A:M Reports in the new year but I don't know how likely it is that they will be implemented.

By adding more than one emitter to the hair system (changing position and direction) you can adjust the density by setting the length and thickness of the 2nd and/or 3rd emitter to 0 with a pose slider. Here's the same tree, but with the settings adjusted.

Paul, this is coming out really cool. I love the tree with the face on it! That's so oz. Are the bushes texture mapped or hairy? Because they look texture mapped, and the leaves look a little regular. Also there's a tree near center screen that isn't completely planted. If you shape the base to look a little more rootlike on that tree it would look nice too. Especially if you could pull the root down the hill a bit.

Other than that though, it looks wonderful.

Hi Paul
I thought Id toss a few detail suggestions in to the mix Id like to see.I left notes on the drwg that hopefully explain the stuff .As we roll along Ill do more but this is a start.I think we need a little less manicured look and lean toward the natural wind and loose foresty feel,not alot mind you but a slight adjustment to the less travelled look.Although I like the ruts in the road stuff I mention on the drwg.dont forget little pools of water left by the rains, giant cobwebs wild mushrooms, bigger than normal ferns ,and moss which I see youve included in your maps great, chips of bark some lightning strike has stripped from the tree.Your birches are great cluster them in groups of 2 and 3.General tree note Dont be afraid to bend the tree trunk shapes and they all dont grow straight many lean left and right as well.
I love the distant fog your using especially in the purple blue range with green hues forground.Im also a fan of light rays shooting thru the forest canopy My childhood was spent in the woods. you know golden time lighting 45-60 degrees filtered through the atmosphere dust and all{volumetric} .The idea of clusters of light hitting the ground and the rest in shadow Is not only astheticaly pretty but gives the characters a solid footing look as the walk and move on the terrain.dark floor always makes the feet appear solidly rooted with weight.
Continue the wonderful work Paul we are all in awe of what your creating my friend.
BobT

Thanks, Bob!

I agree with all that you said there.

This composition was only slapped together in order to test the render times for raytracing with particles. This was not started as an actual location for TWO but I guess it could become one with some work. Nothing is setup with any great care, trees are floating and just roughly placed to fill the background. Also these are not detailed models but proxeys/low patch.

The gnarled and twisted detail is in the next step. Once I have done the other three requested proxey sets I can concentrate on increasing the detail and refining everything. Better geometry and texture maps.

Thanks for the great reference sketches, Bob!
The volumetric rays of light is something that I was tempted to try in this image. It is begging to be used here but I am expecting a big increase in render times when I do.

Great work to come back to Paul. Keep it up.

Thanks, Ken.

I only started using A:M12 when particles became more stable in version 12q but I have noticed some strange artifacts appearing. Remember that sappling from the last test renders? Take a look at the output from A:M 12.0q and compare it to A:M11.1i below.

This is the proxey set for 'Landscape04':

[attachmentid=12828][attachmentid=12829]
Storyboard sketch from Bob and A:M11.1i render of proxey set.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[attachmentid=12830]
A:M12.0q output. Checkout the black blocks.
Another one for A:M Reports.

Hi Paul,
I haven't posted in the forums in a long time, so I hope I'm not being too forward with this. I have just gotten a chance to start using AM again and I ran into this whole movie project right in the middle. There are great models everywhere and a lot of good work all over the place. So I thought I would try to give what help I could. I noticed, like you, that the sets weren't getting too much attention (at least I didn't see many clear examples on on the website). So I thought I'd try my hand at making some inspirational artwork for set designs. I just finished the sketch of landscape 4, hope it can be of some help. The sketch was somewhat fuzzy so I just took the idea and ran with it.

Javier

I love it. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Hi, Javier.

I feel honoured to have you show up in this thread! I have admired all your work that I have seen in these forums in the past. Your enhancement of Bob's sketch is no exception. Wonderful! That is just the direction that I hope to go when I start refining the proxeys. Soon!

Thank you for the added inspiration. Please feel free to come on board if you have the time and inclination.

Don't be a stranger. I am sure that there are many people here who would just love to see more of your work.

I totally agree Paul. As I'm sure Bob will too. Good to see you back Javier.

Paul: Just a small "tip" about how I hope you'll approach your refining process. You've so many scenes there, but they all have common components (trees etc). I hope you concentrate on one scene and get it looking perfect (like Javier's sketch). What you learn in doing that will only make the other scenes better and you can use some of the models/maps/etc in the other scenes. Also, and this is the main thing, the completed scene will serve as inspiration to you and others.

I would just like to say this stuff is looking graet ,very well done Paul

Okay, Ken. Sounds sensible. I will concentrate on one set as much as possible. Now lets see if I can just rough out those last two proxey sets before I choose which one to start refining.
Any preference?

Nice work Javier your there
BobT



Hi Paul;
Agreed its way to early to start refinning we have other sets to design the ideas are great javiar did and we should incorperate them but we dont need to run off in a panic into a phase of the project we dont need yet.Actually the next thing we need to address is the thicket and the loon sets.Keep going here looking great and thankyou Javiar for your input.
BobT

Okay, Bob.
Thanks for keeping me on track! :-)

Hey,
Thanks for all the kind words guys. I will try to sketch out as many as I can. I guess I might have to start a new thread to put them in when I have a few more done. I'll post as soon as possible.

Javier

Its great to have you back in the forum Javier!
People still ask me about your old rocket image.

I can hardly wait to see more of your Oz related work.

Cheers!
Rodney