Here's the start of Mrs Yoop. The design is Alains and you can see it here:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18330

The front and side sketches don't exactly match up, so maybe things might be in the wrong place/proportion. Let me know how it's going Alain/Bob/Jim.

Also here's the wire....

Hi Ken,

I've posted the sketches that Alain and Bob did so it would be easier to review your model.

The first thing that stands out to me is her chin seems too big. I think she has more of a double chin, with hanging fat there instead. The lips seem too plump also. I think the nose could be flatter, not so far out from the face.

I've added Bob's sketches mainly so you can model knowing how the face is going to be distorted and plan for that while modleing. As I see it, you will most likely have to add more splines to the mouth area to allow her to make the range of expressions we need.

Thanks,
Jim

Good start, Ken.
I would just say, less cranium and more eyebrows. :-)
And everything Jim said.

I've been going by the full body image (as a roto) as the face only one has her mouth open. But looking at that one now, it seems her chin is too large. I'll pull it back abit. And do the other things.

Another quick update. Lots of tweaking tomorrow. I used a model Alain sent me for the limbs. Also, I have to add more splines to the mouth.

great start Ken ,watch the chin what you have is actually that flab connecting to neck chin sits in that mass about 13 the size of the neck mass also nose could be a little wider more animal like.think hippo
BT .



head and body shot looks great ,dont be afraid of a bigger Butt supporting that nasty tail.
your good man!!

BT


Very few will agree with me but I have a tendency to push the nuetral pose into almost an at rest expression body and face ,you know, I call them casket poses .relaxed but still you ,when you had life.Rodan like..tension relaxation.I used to have shouting fights with one of my great modlers over this.Its subtle ,barely noticible but for lazy animators it always look alive .also I have a tendency to not make models totally symetric ..like life distorted mirror stuff.im not suggedting it just sharing. with you Im a push the envelope guy,got my fired alot......
BT

Hi Ken

Glad to see that you've start modeling Yoop !

Would it be easier to work only on half mesh ?
Are you working with the mirror modeling option ? personnaly I don't use it much , cause I don't want to see all that mesh and deal with it ( hide) ...so I cut the model in two ... and double it only when I'm satisfy . ..it work for me

Regarding the sketches you use to model ...
I would suggest to use the facial one for the head , they are more precise...
Also you can adjust them in photoshop ( with layer and scale to adjust proportion as you wish)

IMO ' I agree with Bob about the neutral face etc. , but as modeling purpose only I would use the extreme facial pose, it will give you all the mesh you need for further expression...and at the end , you can make it back to a neutral face and keep the extreme expression as a facial pose ? what do you think ?


Nice start so far... try to stick more to the sketches if you can.

later
Al

COOL model so far. Ken, you are my idol!

Drvarceto

Alain: I'm modeling on half the mesh. Just CFAing it when I want to check the progress and show it here.
You say stick more to the sketches....is there anything that catches your eye in the latest update? Perhaps the chin area needs fatening?

A few more tweaks. She's symetrical at the moment, but I can change that at the end....if not, it can be put into a default pose that will always be with her.

I gave her some nails. I wonder if I should put some nails on her toes?

Ken,
mmmm? , maybe...? I' m just figure out that you use the full body roto , so that's why the mouth is close !
hehehe ...
I don't want to comment to much at this time , it's a good work !
go ahead , you're in the good track Ken !

Don't forget a complete inside mouth , with gum and cheek muscle etc.
( I've sent you some interesting mesh on this topic, if it can help )

In a words , this model is basically a reptile , same details...

PS: just one thing , would you show us just half of the model next time ? ... a face and side view
with an extra shaded wireframe rendering ? it would help us to compare with the rotos ref...

Thanks Ken
Al

Yes, I'm not too comfortable modeling with the mouth open. I find it's hard to get the proportions/fat flow right. Probably a bad habit I've gotten.

I'll do those images now....

Ken ,
Nice details on the face Ken,

I think the smile/mouth should be wider in front view ...

for the feets , IMO it's not a two toes character ... So if you can , make her with regular reptile feet (?)with nails... her feet should remain small with sandal...
+ don't forget Jim remarks that I've sent you in my first mail... about the size of the calfs and feet etc

thanks
Al

Here they are. (I was using the side view...you can see the shoulders for example are at different levels in each of the views) I've got the start of an inner mouth in there. Just some extrusion needed. Teeth will be added soon.

Oh, I thought she had two toes. I'm not sure....is it like the toes of a lizard? Sharp and pointy? Also, I don't think I got those comments of Jims about the calfs and feet.....

I'll get onto the wider smile.

Ken,
About the toes, its a big toe with the rest of the feet... not like two toes.
The big toe is use to hold the sandal , we say in french "les babouches ";)
...see what I mean ?

About the face, maybe you should drive your modeling from the front view ? it's the main one IMO.,
and adapt the side one to front proportion...
As it is , in front view the head look too upward so it doesn't fit with the rotos and give us this false impression that it doesn't stick to the ref.

But do as you feel it...

Al

What do you think is the best way to handle skirt ?geom?
BT

Ken,
Here what I seen...hope it'd help

my comment session is close for today

Al

Bob,

I would see the skirt over the pants ... the skirt have lot of ply so it would be a good challenge for those who like clothe simulation... but if it got problem with that , a constrain/pose/smartskin system can be set to deal with skirt movments...

NB: Ken don't forget to model two big asses, that way a clothe simulation would look funny by showing those asses move under the skirt ? especially in back view...

other issues
-Top garnments would be regular modeling , with some rig setup as needed ( tip of shirt etc. )
-A special rig system for the fan tail behing the head
-Another system for the cap ( cloth simulation ?)

...my tought about that
Al

She has two fine ass cheeks. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the image you posted Alain, but I think it's mainly the mouth area and some crow feet (use bump map for this?) at the eyes.
Also, I'll rejig it so that it looks more like the front view.

I think we're getting closer. The teeth are just put in there roughly to see how they look. I'm having trouble getting the chin/neck right, but I think it's looking better.
Also, could I have an image of how the toes should look. Is she wearing slippers? Are we ever going to see her feet?

Yep , she's coming yoopy !

some notes:
She got two theets bigger on the side and some smaller one in between ,... unequally spaced
Also she would have some big molar on back of the mouth visible when she's open wide...

About the chin and other fat region , you should use a "non-smooth " cps line
( don't remember the term , I mean using right angle cps )
As to split the chin from the chest and to highlight other fat curve ...creating a crisp line would help.

Another solution is to let the fat of the throat fall over the chest (pass throught ), this will create a straight line automatically... not quit elegant IMO

hope I'm not too confuse here !

For the feets , mmm ? the toes seem too long for the feet lenght...1/3 - 1/4 of the lenght should be enough
Yes she's wearing slippers...and slippers tie between her first toe .
...think about some japanese girls feets ! hehehe !

Of course feet are important, we see her feet lot of time ...
I'll try to provide you some detailed sketches if you still need it...

PS: Ears attach a bit strangely to the head...
Al

Ken
I see now, she need the" little chin" just under the lips...
the rest is a fat throat...

thanks for you patience

Al

Yes. I'll add another chin and sharpen the crease on the other one.
I'll improve the ears. I think they're too far out.....

Even a photograph of the feet you're thinking of will do. Maybe also, a clear design of the slippers you have in mind.


PS I think you're thinking of peaking the crease under the chin fat. Ill probably adjust the bias though. Same effect.

Yes ! that's what I've tought Ken . thanks !

Here a sketches about the feet... I've added some toes...it fit better IMO

later
Al

Mrs Yoop reminds (a lot) of a character that I have seen before. I can't quite remember where I saw her before. Anyone else getting a dejavue - matrix glitch?

Thanks Alain. That's perfect.

Bill: I've been thinking that. But I can't put my finger on it. She can't be exactly like anything otherwise it'd be obvious. Hopefully.

She remind me...
The Grinch who stole christmas with Jim Carrey ? , also the TV show with the dinosaurs who had replaced human ?


Al

YES! The baby one in the nest(?). The face only though.

My first impression was Bowser from Mario Bros fame. Then there was the witch in the woods in the Sword in the Stone (when she was fighting with Merlin).

Alain's drawing (but not the model so far) reminded me a bit like Shrek (the main character) - Shrek's evil sister.

http://www.shrek2.com/

Maybe because I was unconsciously picturing green skin on Yoop? But the chin, neck, nose are similar.

Some more subtle changes. Feet are still in progress. Still clothes to do too!

Added feet and slippers. Teeth next. I need to know how many teeth you want her to have. Also, how big should the larger (incisers) teeth be. Are they (incisers) on upper and lower jaws?

Nice details Ken !

Here some tweak I've made in photoshop over you last render .
Mainly around the mouth , chin and fat ....
I'm also posting the psd file so you would be able to " flip" between layers
of my tweaks and your render... it help to see differences.

PS : if you can reduce the iris of the eyes ? or just make it a lighter color and preserve only the pupil in black ?it would give another look of the character...more evil .

Good work so far !
Al

edit:

wanna add : bigger(longer) arm and shoulder would help ... , make the forearm and hands proportionally longer like a great ape have ... it would make her more bestial

Nice creasing effect under the tits !... maybe a fat creasing line around the waist to split with the skirt/pants with the torso would be nice too ?


Al

Nice work Ken ! , what she suppose to be? a Yoop? kinda scares me like those monkey things is the Wiz.of OZ....except with some weight behind and infront of her/it..

Michael

Reminds me of the Orc king (or troll king?) from the Rankin-Bass version of The Hobbit, but with boobs and sandals.

Got that done. Any word on the question about her teeth Alain?

PS I assume we're putting cloth on top of her? Or not?

Ken, about her teeth , just one thing be sure to split the lips from the gums...
here a quick sketches on that issue...

Clothes ... ?
The skirt would be over the pants for sure ( possible clothe simulation)... the apron too .
But the shirt should be modeled isn't it ? what do you think ? it will simplify a lot ...just made the neck of the shirt
She also need , the cap , the belt , the neck fan thing, some jowels

what about some ribbons laced around her calf/ankle like Conan the barbarian ?

PS: Is your render is from a camera ? it seem to have some focal lenght who confuse proportion to my eyes .... Would it be better to use the front /side view ? ... the same rendering you use before was just perfect
it's a lot easier for me to look the progress made in that orthographic view over rotos...but keep the camera render to show an overall of the model...

Thanks
Al

Here's an ortho render. And the questions....

Teeth: I'm still not sure what shape/number of teeth you're looking for. Also the incisor teeth....are they on the top and/or bottom.

Cloth: Yeah, probably the upper clothes should be modelled. The rest may be cloth sim. You mentioned pants? Is she wearing pants under the skirt? Like bloomers?
Also, we must remember, she'll be in night clothes too in the movie.

Eyes: The eyes are only temporary. I think eventually, we're going to standardize the eyes for all the characters so they have the same look. Perhaps that should be done before rigging? They'll need to dilate etc.

Scale: What height is Mrs Yoop?

Its looking good - but I think the chin is still too wide. Has anyone thought about using thongs (flip Flops) rather than slippers!

Cheers

I would consider what she's got on there as flip flops. Slippers would be furry enclosed things in my eyes.

This is what I was thinking about:

Hey ! David is that your feet ?
hehehe !
Al

That's a good question. She's a giantess, and her height will determine the scale of every other object in her castle. In John R. Neill's illustrations, where she looks like a Greek goddess (which is how he likes to draw women), the Tin Woodman is about knee-high to her. Woot as the Green Monkey has to wear her apron, which is going to be too big for him anyway. In this design, her legs are really short, so maybe her entire leg would be about man-height.

How does 20 feet sound for her overall height? What would an apron designed for someone 20 feet tall look like when worn by an average-sized (about 3 foot?) monkey?

I realise that things are changing but in the scene where our adventurers attempt to enter Yoop castle they stand on each other's shoulders and struggle to reach the latch. Normally a latch would be between half and three quarters of the way up the door, between waste and shoulders. Mrs Yoop, I imagine, would be almost the height of the door. If Tinman has been allocated a height of 6 foot that would make Mrs Woot closer to 30 ft.

Maybe the latch would be set higher though and the characters would not be stretched to full cacpacity which would bring Mrs Yoop's required height down a bit. So maybe 20 ft is a more realistic height for Mrs. Yoop.

As for the apron, I believe that the original story describes it as being a very small apron, so I don't think that it was made for Mrs. Yoop, just something that she aquired.

LOL - No. I wouldn't be caught dead in pink thongs

Cheers

Is that not what she has on her? Maybe the main strap isn't curved and the small strap is connected with a rivet thing. But essentially, it's the same. No?
And who mentioned underware?!? A thong is a womens thing.

Regarding scale. Perhaps another way round it would be to make Yoop and her castle normal scale. Then we make smaller version of the characters. Don't know. Probably need Bobs input on this.

It would be pretty easy to scale the other characters down to a yet-to-be-determined height to make them the correct scale with Mrs. Yoop. That might be easier than modeling everything in Yoop castle huge. (but when working with "virtual" inches, does it make any difference how big you make something?)

BTW she's looking quite good! (in a gigantic, evil, ugly sort of way)

In the animatics, who is the story we work on , Mrs Yoop is scalable...
When she talk to woot she scale down to his size and when she wanna scare , she scale up.
So the real size of Yoop is not really known but she definitively live in a big castle...
so set should be quite big ... designed for a 30 ft tall giant ? not sure ... seem a bit too much... 12 to 15 fts is quite big too ? 0f course Yoop can be bigger and have her head to touch the roof...???good question.

Maybe Bob can give some presisions on that ?

PS: I think size is important regarding texture resolution isn't it... scale down character is better than make it bigger...Yoop would have more high res map used...

Thanks
Al

She's going to look great with hair and a dress!

Sincerely,
Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com

Yes. It makes a difference. The size and scale issue is very important for all things related to dynamics like rigid body dymanics, hair dynamics and cloth dynamics where believability of dynamics motions is extremely dependent on the true size of the objects. And scaling a character in shoreography will change the dynamics that it would use. So just keep modeling the characters and props to their real size all the time.

As far as handling objects of large size and scale in A:M. this is not an issue.

Beside, if all the models are modeled at different scales by different modelers, it will make it very difficult to keep a scale relationship consistency between the objects and characters in different scenes. All models need to adhere to one scale standard and this standard is the true life size standards.


What is important here is the resolution of the texture applied to a surface relative to how it is rendered on screen. This is independent of the object size but rather dependent on how near from the camera, the object will be seen. The rule is texture resolution should be at least two times the rendered resolution. If the object is only seen far away and, when rendered, if it only uses lets say 100x100 pixels on the screen, then a texture resolution of 200x200 would be sufficient. Conversely, if, lets say, the nose of the character is to be rendered full screen at, lets say, 640x480, then the area of the nose that is rendered should have a texture of at least 1280x960.

So because the textures are so much dependent on the rendered resolution which itslef is dependent on the rendered screen size, which have not been decided yet, and on the scene camera shots, which have only been roughly decided yet, deciding how high resolution are required for textures is premature. Just texture the characters so they look good and the final textures will be adjusted when comes the final shots.