I am working on the exterior of the workshop and was wondering how others are doing stone houses?

I have two techniques so far...
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Using a displacement map on a simple mesh grid. This by far is so much "easier" to "design". I have to admit the results were... very good... and produced in a fraction of the time as a modeled technique.

or...

Individual modeled stones.

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Any preference? I prefer the flexibility of displacement... you can change the style in a heart beat. Change the map... BANG... new wall... BANG... bricks.... BANG... smaller stones... BANG... different pattern.... Honestly can't tell the difference from a modeled wall visually... of course... you can't preview in wireframe.

The modeled version is more time consuming and changes could be a bit more difficult... but... the result of course is "real".

I really don't mind going either way. Just would like to know what is going to work best for the project.

(Window frames would be modeled)

Vernon "!" Zehr

I can only imagine if you modeled them that they'd be a mess/mass of splines. Bound to be creases somewhere. Not that method really matters but I'd go for displacement maps or normals maps if they're smaller stones/bricks.

Go with maps, if that looks best to you.
The exterior is a short scene, so keep in that in mind

sounds like a job for BitMapPlus or decals .. definitely normal maps .. is there a mac version of BMP? if not, remind me to send the source over to hash ..

God bless you sir! Exactly what I was hoping to hear.

This is a VERY rough test... I am going to create several different "styles" of stone patterns to see which one looks the best with all the rest of the elements of the set.
[attachmentid=9461]

This is the map... in progress. Need to add some variations to the stones.
[attachmentid=9463]

Vernon "!" Zehr

OK - here is my question..... Is this the job of the modeller or whoever will be doing the texturing? If it's the modellers job then someone please direct me to a tute as texturing is not one of my strong points (and I have never done any displacement mapping)

Cheers

Pretty cool Vern. Did you draw that map?!?

David, don't worry--if it isn't your specialty(texturing), we will pass it to another artist. In this case, Vern is a very good texture artist too, so I trust that I can just critique it.

This is a sort of... out of the ordinary situation in regards to "texturing" vs "modeling".

Using a displacement map this way... is kind of a texture... but is also... kind of like modeling...

I could "model" the wall stones using my map as a rotoscope... but then I am locked in to what the mesh is... I suppose at the end when the "look" is approved... if the displacement doesn't cut the mustard... it could just be traced and modeled.

I started down that road and realized it was going to take a while to do... and redo... if it wasn't good enough.

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I sort of drew the map... kind of.

This was a "test" so... I just started with he Photoshop "Stained Glass" filter. This produces a kind of random pattern of shapes "similar" to a stone wall. I just ran the filter on an all white layer which produced black lines on white.

I then used noise/dust and scratches filter to round the corners, not a lot all at once... use a small number over and over... then you don't get the "distortions"...and a bunch of duplicated layers blurred and set to different opacities and multiply ink effect.

Then I will use the Other/maximum filter to "squeeze" the "lines".

Once I have it the way I like... I record the whole process as an action so I don't go insane trying to duplicate the effect.

I need to tweak it a little. I need to get thinner, darker lines between the "stones". The thicker lines produce a pronounced grout line and I want to subdue that.

I have been collecting some stone wall textures and will "extract" the "outlines" for creating some different styles. Then I can just run my action and test the results in AM.

This might be a useful technique for other "background" houses that might be needed.

Vernon "!" Zehr

So do you want me to do the texturing too? I was experimenting down that road but wasn't sure if you wanted me to... or if there was a separate "team" to make sure everything had the same "look".

Still early days for this I suppose.

Vernon "!" Zehr

Thanks for the P.S. tutorial Vern, and the map,.....I bet you didn't even know you were tutoring me....;<)

Michael

Were are we going to draw this team from?--I think you will have to be on the team, Vern!

Vern, that is one excellent technique for generating rapid deformation/bump maps!!

Cheers!

Oh lordy lordy... I was afraid of that...
Since gluttony is one of the deadly sins... being a glutton for punishment is a sin? Right? So... you not only are placing your eternal soul in danger... you don't even get to enjoy it like regular gluttony?

<sigh> I will have to consider this carefully as I expect it will be a lot of work.

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Thanks for the kudos guys on the rock displacement!

When I get my PS action finalized I will post it... I don't think actions are crossplatform though... can't remember... I am on a mac...

I added a step. At the complete end, I put a very subtle, large "blurry cloudy thingy layer" over the whole shebang with multiply. This will give some "height" variations to the surface of the rocks... adjust opacity to taste...

..bake at 250° for 35 minutes or until golden brown. Remove from the oven and let sit for 5 minutes. Serves 6.

Or... paint this by hand.


Vernon "!" Zehr

My experiment worked pretty well.

I have attached the Photoshop action file zipped. I don't know if it works with PC photoshop.

Here are the results of my tests using the action files. Some of these I used a modified channel from the wall RGB image for the height variation.

AM displaced grid
[attachmentid=9513]

Displacement maps produced from custom action file.
[attachmentid=9514]


Zip file of actions. In photoshop actions pallete. Select "load actions" and select the "Hash_TWO_Project.atn" file.
[attachmentid=9515]

Vernon "!" Zehr

Wow! I won't say which I like best. Don't want to influence decisions. I assume they'll be tilable eventually...

They could be tillable I suppose.

I plan to do "one" piece map for the whole front of Ku-Klip's house. That way it has that natural random look. I don't like tiles much unless I can "hide" them... or they don't have a repeat pattern that is too noticeable.

Vernon "!" Zehr

great job Vern!

Vern:

Would you post a wireframe of the mesh you are using for the examples? Also, could you direct me to a tutorial on how to make a displacement map out of a color picture? It should be converted to a grayscale, right? Then some tweaking and what not?

Come to think of it, in V.13, you could probably get those results with a four point patch, right?

Thanks

Eric

I played around with displacement in V.13 and would like some tips on making the maps. As you can see in the pic, using a colored picture as a displacement map doesn't make for good results. I want a smooth washed rock look for the displacement map which I don't get with the color map.

So, the big question is: How can I turn the color map into a smooth displacement map?

Just bring in the image to photoshop and set it's mode to greyscale. Inside all those rocks, you'll probably see spots of grey. It might get abit tricky as you don't want all the stones the same white as you want a dome effect...

So, maybe the best way would be to use the dodge tool to brighten up those little spots inside the stones.

PS Actually, using the "dust and scratches" or bluring filters might do the trick.

Eric, you are on the right track but you need to make a greyscale map for the displacement to work properly. To get a really good displacement map out of an image, like the one that you have posted, requires some work in an image editor.

Starting from scratch will give you total control over your stones, in the way that Vern has done. You can still get half way there with an image like the one you have used.

You should make a copy of your colour map, desaturate the colours and then set about tweaking recessed areas toward black and raised areas toward white.
You need to aim for the parts of the image that will lay flat, at ground level, to have a grey value of 50%, (128,128,128 RGB). Anything recessed will have a grey value which moves toward black and anything which is raised from the flat surface will have a grey value which moves toward white. So you need to look at your images, decide what is raised and what is recessed and tweak the copy to produce your bump/displacement map. Combine both maps in a decal to produce something like the attached example.

This is a quick tweaking job to produce the displacement map. If you study the movie and the attached tga files you will see the areas that need work. Particularly the unnaturally flat surfaces.

[attachmentid=15231]



Don't trip over in here.

[attachmentid=15232]

The repetition in the tiling is too obvious for my liking. I wonder if Zpider's BitMapPlus could be used to randomise things a bit. It's probably a bit too much but worth an investigation.

Here are your colour and displacement maps. You should take the displacement map into an image editor and practice doming the stones to make them more realistic.

[attachmentid=15233]

Also practice painting your own.
Have fun!

Wow, Paul!

Thanks for the great reply. Before I read it, I played around in photoshop to tweak a grayscale map. After making the map and rendering a color and the new grayscale, I saw immediately what you and Ken are talking about as far as getting a more raised look. I think for my first try this isn't too bad, but like you said, I'm gonna try for a more domed effect on the next run.

Here is my first try - the render and the grayscale

Well done, Eric! You're on your way! ;-)

Try using more Gaussian Blur on your displacement map and notice how it will round off the edges.

start with a duplicate layer.
Turn it greyscale.
Run high-pass filter to even out low-frequency noise
do a levels adjustment
use Dodge and Burn tool to hand paint areas that need adjustment
blur a bit
[edit--opps! didn't see that there were already answers to the question]

Paul, on the image you provided, what displacement % did you use? I'm trying between 100 - 300%.

Will, your oops is ok, cause your suggestion of dodge and burn will help me out. Thanks.

That was 500% displacement. When using displacement values you can go really high! ;-)

This is more fun than a barrel full of cobblestones. Making a good displacement map is quite a challenge for me. Ok, let's see what I come up with now.

Something strange seems to be going on in my render. To the best of my knowledge, blacks are low points, grays are midpoints, and whites are the high points, right? So according to my displacement map, I should have nice round river rock. Now if you look at the horizontal plane, it looks to me like everything is just the inverse of what it should be - it looks as though the white highlights are actually causing the mesh to distort in a concave manner, causing low points, etc. Am I seeing things wrong, or what?

I used 500% displacement.

Try flipping your normal.

Before reading your post Rodney, I inverted the normal map in Photoshop and got the results I wanted. Then I checked the normals, and you were right, they/it pointed backwards. Rendering again with uninverted map to see if that did the trick.

And the results are (drum roll).....Rodney, you were right! (Clapping and cheering!)

Here is a pic of the latest. I can see a banding effect where the normal map doesn't have a smooth transition from the black to the midtones, but that is just in my sloppy work on the quickie normal map. I am pleased with the result and have nothing more to do than to refine the normal map creation technique.

Thank you all for the input.

Or instead of inverting it in photoshop, you could have just put in a -500 value in AM. But it's best to stick to get it sorted. Looking good.

displacement map, not normal map.

Ok, here is a quick and dirty nor... er, I mean...displacement map on a chimney. I tried to line up the decals very carefully and have succeeded for the most part. There is a problem, however, with the rip in the decal on the 5 point patch on the corner of the fireplace opening. I've heard over and over again that decals don't like 5 point patches, but how can I get past this issue when its almost impossible to make a model without them?

In the pic below, the top arrows point to the crack at the edge of the 5 point patches. The bottom arrows point to an apparent break in the decal where two normal four point patches meet. This is not a seam where two decals line up. The decal spans the two four point patches, yet it still has a rip at that point. Any ideas why? I corrected all the normals.

It's almost like there may be an issue with displacement maps overlapping bordering patches. Looking carefully at the render I can see distortions or rips at just about every plane where two patches meet. This is already impressive to me, but the rips kinda put a damper on my glee.

Hey that is looking really nice!

*Note on that flipping normal thing: Sometimes I am just a really lucky guesser.

I would have guessed the flippin thing too,....eventually......yeah,....a few days down the road.....or so.....yeah

Now, Rodney, you'd really be a studmuffin if you could figure out the rips along the patch borders.

You need to model some trim, that stands higher than your displacement map, so that it covers, or caps, the edges of patches which have exposed edges. Or flatten your chimney and have the displacement map wrap around and into the chimney.

The other issue is, I think is related to 5 point patches. :-(

I noticed another issue that you might need to fix. At the moment the supports for the mantle are running straight through solid stones. I think you would be better off making a complete map for this fireplace rather than trying to tile it. That way you could pack your stones around the supports and add other details where neccessary. It would also get rid of any repeating patterns in the stonework.

Why do that when Paul and others do such a studdly job of answering the tough ones.
Nice answer Paul!

Well, I was told that Rome wasn't build in one day? Hmm, me thinks we have come a long way in a few short banters around the fireplace. Time to rest and let it all sink in.
Not a bad start from not even knowing how to convert a picture into a displacement map.

Applause!!!
You've done well! :-)

Thank you and thanks to you all

If you look carefully, there are rips along quite a few other splines, so this problem might be more general - it's just that the 5 point patch shows the effect more. This is a nice and simple example of the problem, so perhaps you should submit it to AM:Reports.For older versions of A:M I've had far worse problems with 5 point patches than what you have here, so while I would like to see these rips fixed, I'm happy that things have improved! (So... sorry, I have no solution for this.)

Coming from you really nails it shut. Off to AM reports it goes.

Displacement works differently now than in the past and should work over hooks and 5 pointers.
Turn on Normals (Shift+1) and look at those 5 pointers and see if the normals are pointing the wrong way. If they are, select the patch with the patch select tool and flip it (F).

As Zandoria suggests, check those normals first!

I did that about three renders ago as Rodney already suggested. The last couple of renders, tears and all , have all normals pointing out in the same direction.

I'm going to make one map for most of the fireplace per Pauls suggestion and see if that works first.

There's something funny with your geometry

Could the tears be double splines?

Hmmm, double splines? I won't discount it until I've checked it. Will do that after the Kings game.

No double splines, but several discontinuous splines that I fixed. That helped, but did not solve the problem. See the render after the spline fix.

Yves, if you or someone else want to take a look at the fireplace model, I'd really appreciate it. Right now the displacement decal is still showing breaks across patch boundries.