Here is Jims lovely drawing:

I thought I would do a drawing before I started to get a feel for the form and to clarify things a little... I hope you don't mind Jim.

I have drawn some lines just to clarify the form. They won't necesseraly be where splines go.

The main area that I worked on was the nose. I wanted to keep the sharpness that you had but I was unsure as to exactly how it should work. I made the brow ridge go to the button of the nose rather than to the nostrils. I think this works best - unless there is no button and the nose is just a triangle?

At first, I enterpreted the chin as convex but then I realised that it is probably flat. I guess I should wait for you to give me the profile.

I thought that there should be something for the internal mechanism to work on at the elbow joint so I put those ridges there.

I thought that the feet should be a little slimmer and curved so as to appear more dainty.

Also, the toes on your drawing seem to have thier axis at a different point on the right and left of each foot. this looks good but isn't mechanically viable so I guess we will have to make it vialble and work out how to make it look good later.

There are two a-symmetries that I noticed. First, the shoulders are of different heights. I prefer her left side. Also, the eyebrows have different placements. I would probably go for somewhere between the two.

I know that you are the art director and it may seem like I am taking liberties but we have been told that we can make suggestions

There are some issues that I think need clearing up for these metal characters (sorry if this has been discussed before). I am thinking that it is best if the metal can bend to get expressoin. I know that they decided to do this for the film "robots" evon though that wasn't the original intention. This is the only way that I can imagine things like the eyebrows working - unless there are tracks for them to run across or something - which could look ugly.

Anyway, that is enough for now.

P.S: It struck me whilst worked that she is a striking resemblance to a young Joan Collins.... fwooor

[EDIT] I updated the drwawing so she didn't have a zany cross-eyed look

Simply beautiful.

As soon as I saw it... I could hear the gentle clinking of the dress as she walks... the musical tinkle of her hair as a breeze rustles the strips of thin metal...

...hey... that could be a part of her "personality" in sound design... her hair could be like a subtle "wind chime" that produces a musical sound when wind blows through it...

Vernon "!" Zehr

I just realised tha her jaw has to be worked out. How is the joint going to work?

I did a little work on the head. I had a think about the jaw and shaded things a little. I know that she is tin but matte shading works better for expressing form.

[EDIT] Maybe I drew the jaw too heavy?

Lots of points to consider, so here goes:


"I thought I would do a drawing before I started to get a feel for the form and to clarify things a little... I hope you don't mind Jim.

I have drawn some lines just to clarify the form. They won't necesseraly be where splines go."

The drawing looks great to me! My only nitpicks are to please make sure her forehead is rounded and doesn't slant back too soon above the eyebrows. And her jaw looks too big or goes too far back. I intended for the jaw to be a separate piece, hinged at the usual spot on a human.


"The main area that I worked on was the nose. I wanted to keep the sharpness that you had but I was unsure as to exactly how it should work. I made the brow ridge go to the button of the nose rather than to the nostrils. I think this works best - unless there is no button and the nose is just a triangle?"

I'd like to keep the nose as simple as possible, although that doesn't mean it has to be just a pyramid shape. I like what you drew, let's keep it that detailed and no more. Which means no nostrils.

"At first, I enterpreted the chin as convex but then I realised that it is probably flat. I guess I should wait for you to give me the profile."

Yes, the chin is flat, but the edge of that flat spot should be beveled so it's not too sharp.

"I thought that there should be something for the internal mechanism to work on at the elbow joint so I put those ridges there."

Well, this is something that I may not agree with others about... but the characters aren't alive because they have motors and mechanical systems inside them. They aren't robots. They are alive because they are in Oz. I think the Tin characters only need hinges that look believable, then they just move their own limbs.

"I thought that the feet should be a little slimmer and curved so as to appear more dainty.

Also, the toes on your drawing seem to have thier axis at a different point on the right and left of each foot. this looks good but isn't mechanically viable so I guess we will have to make it vialble and work out how to make it look good later."

You got the feet just right. Feel free to adjust the pivot to how you think it looks best.

"There are two a-symmetries that I noticed. First, the shoulders are of different heights. I prefer her left side. Also, the eyebrows have different placements. I would probably go for somewhere between the two.

Yes, please make her symmetrical for the neutral pose that you model her in. I tend to add expression to the characters face when sketching them out.

"I know that you are the art director and it may seem like I am taking liberties but we have been told that we can make suggestions smile.gif"

Suggest away!

"There are some issues that I think need clearing up for these metal characters (sorry if this has been discussed before). I am thinking that it is best if the metal can bend to get expressoin. I know that they decided to do this for the film "robots" evon though that wasn't the original intention. This is the only way that I can imagine things like the eyebrows working - unless there are tracks for them to run across or something - which could look ugly."

I agree that the face in particular should be flexible metal to get pleasing and readable expressions.

"Anyway, that is enough for now.

P.S: It struck me whilst worked that she is a striking resemblance to a young Joan Collins.... fwooor"

Ugh! I wish you didn't mention that. She bothers me. Thanks! Can't wait to see the modeling begin.

Jim

Wow, it took me a LONG time to get that reply typed!

If it's not bad form I'd like to stake a claim on rigging this one, great design.

-David

OK... I didn't know that it was this urgent.

I thought I would start modelling. I still have some tweeking to do but I thought this was a good time to show what I have.

Jim, I looked at your Nimmie Amee and noticed that you arn't shying away from using lots of geometry so I did the same. I had been trying to achieve sharp edges by using bias adjustments alone but I needed porcilain to get a feminine smoothness and it was rounding things off too much. I ended up using a few double splines here and there. It shouldn't cause to many rigging headaches though.

I always like to make sure that there are some nice smile lines in my models when I make them and I have accentuated them here just a touch so you can see them. I thought about having them go between where they are and the corners of the mouth but I think this is the more natural position.

I am not quite happy with the ears but they will be kinda hidden and I don't know how you want them so I will finish them later. I am thinking that they should be simple and sharp.

I am wondering how the eyebrows should be done... Bumpmaps?

Here she is with her mouth open. I found that I could shape the lower jaw in such a way that the mouth had a natural-ish look when open.

Also, I just realised that she needs eye lashes. I am thinking that these could be made of wire of some sort.

And here is the side view. I used your drawing as a rotoscope to get the length of the neck the same but it appears rather long and thin from the side. I guess this is because she is lacking flesh under her chin. I couldn't put too much there as otherwise she wouldn't be able to open her mouth.

Also, I am not quite sure about the jaw line. I have spent some time tweeking it back all around the place but it is a tricky one to get right.

And here is a wire.

Here is a render with shadows. The form really gets brought out with this lighting.

And another shadowed view from three quarter veiw

That's looking remarkably well. I agree the side needs.....something.

I was worrying that she wouldn't be able to grimace because of the shape around her mouth which is kinda smiley so I did a little animation test.

It looks like she can grimace in animation but when she is still, even a grimace has a cheeky look to it. I guess it would be possible to make the cheeks move right down but this could look odd. It might be better to rely upon the animation and avoid long shots of her grimacing.

The animation is best viewed by scrubbing back and forth as it is a little slow.

Hi John,

Good progress so far!

A couple things that stand out to me:

The ridge that runs from her nose to her eyebrows really makes her look angry or even gives her the "bad guy look". Can you smooth that area out? An important thing about making a female character pretty, is reducing the amount of details in most of the face as much as possible and focussing on the eyes and mouth. Shallow, huh?

I think the nose is great, but maybe a tiny bit too narrow. Nitpick, sorry!

As for the ears, since I didn't draw any, I haven't given you any direction on them. I am thinking, since Tin Man doesn't have any ears, that either we leave them out or just make them flat pieces of tin that slant back the way a real ear would. I agree that an overly detailed ear wouldn't fit with the big smooth shapes in the rest of the character. If you want to try it either or both ways, then we could decide which way to go.

The start of her clothes is perfect! I can't wait to see more.

I pictured the scalloped line that runs from her mouth to the jaw as just a seam where the jaw would meet the face in a decorative way. Right now it looks like the upper lip extends way past the lower lip. It kind of adds to the "evil" look. Can you make the upper and lower lip end at the same point that the lower lip ends now, and make the scalloped line just a seam, with the face and jaw being flush. The jaw may have to widen to accomplish that.

Hopefully all that isn't sounding too negative. It is a great start to the real heroine of the movie.

Thanks,
Jim

Wow, I see magic in this. Great work John.

Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com

Alright, where's the rest? Where's the rest?


Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com

Alright, where's the rest? Where's the rest?

What he said!

Looking forward to the next update.

Rodney

Hi Guys. I am kinda busy at the mo. I'm regretting getting into that other thread but I think I have clawed myself away now. I have done some work on it but I am trying to resolve the thing of making her look good both with her mouth open and with it closed. I will show you when I am getting there.

Hi Guys, and sorry for not doing that much recently. I found some tweek time and did enough to warrent some feedback. I have been working on the mouth - particularly making it look good when open and closed. I tried to make the jaw fit with the cheeks as much as possible whlst keeping some kind of seam. I would prefer no seem at all so that she looks more natural with her mouth open.

Jim,

I softened the eyebrows and a few other things as suggested.

Hi John,

Thanks for the update. I really like how she's coming along. I don't think her mouth would have to open that wide very often. I'm hoping the animators can mainly use her lip shape to do most lipsyncing.

I think the fix to the jaw seam is good.

I'm not sure about the sides of her mouth where it appears to be flexing when her mouth is open. I think it might be better to keep that area (inside her mouth) as mechanical as possible and just let the lips be pliable like skin. Can you try to keep the exposed surfaces, that appear when the seam joint has separated, to be just slightly indented from the seam all the way into the mouth. And try to create an edge that would slide up into her head when she closes her jaw. She needs to be as mechanical as Tin Man, and I'm afraid we're getting too flexible with her. I've attached an image to show what I poorly described.

I think her irises are a little too big.

Otherwise keep going!

Thanks,
Jim

Hi Jim.

Actually, the inner mouth (lets call it) doesn't deform at all. I just shaped it so it would look that way. I see what you are saying about keeping her looking mechanical though. I am thinking that this aspect of her look may well be something that will be tweeked as animation tests are done so maybe I had better stop loosing hair over it and move on for now. Also, I am thinking that I could make some pose sliders that can adjust the look.

I have made the foot. It is nice not to have to do the toes. I havn't tweeked it all that much. It is something else I expect to come back to.

What's to tweak? Looks great!

Jim

I haven't got the time to work on this model so I will post what I have here and someone else will be chosen to continue with it. I won't have time to rig Nimee Amee iether but I would very much like to see my rig used for it.

John,

Thanks for trying. I understand about being busy at times. Hopefully what your busy with is some good paying jobs.

I've decided to take on this model myself.

Jim

Hi Jim. Good to know she is in safe hands. I am getting payed some money but I am seeing it more as the first rung on a ladder. Good luck with it all.

So noted in the Project Plan - 2 resources John and Jim.

I found a big chunk of time (late at night and into the morning) to work on Tin Girl. Just her head and some "hair" so far.

I'm continuing the same thread so it won't be confusing.

Jim

Amazing how people put their own stamp on a model. Both excellent yet both different. Of course it's lighting too.

Edit: Assuming those hair strands are going to bounce, they're all going to need rigging. I'm sure one of the riggers will say which way is best to go about it.

Yes, they should move with some secondary motion, but hopefully not too much. Probably just a kinematic constraint for each roll of hair would be enough, set at lower enforcements as they go under others and are closer to her head.

Just a guess!

Jim

we'll see about that

Looking good jim

-David

Thanks, David.

I'll take your word for it because.....yes, you wrote the book.

Jim

Gosh! She has had quite a mak-over there. I guess that ...metalic surgery gives more control than plastic surgery.

Hang on... we arn't made of plastic!! I'm confused.

When I was thinking about riggin the hiar I was going to put a chain in each strip that could curl and un-curl like a spring (only this would usually be quite subtle). I was thinking that, as well as secondary motion, it could provide some squetch type expression.

But they are looking different now... more logarythmic.

It is a bit different, isn't it? I hope you don't mind but I started fresh, sort of. I once again started with Lady Goodbody and reworked her to get to this point. It's probably a psychological thing, but I don't like working on someone else's model. Your model was looking great and had a style of it's own, but I just couldn't make myself continue on with it.


Anyway, all that expression stuff is way over my head. Rigging always brings my 3D work to a halt.

Jim

I wonder if you're going to make her joints the same as Tin Woodmans joints?

I will make them the same as Tinman's...once those are finalized.

Jim

Minor update: Tweaks and more tin-hair.

Jim

Hey Jim. Nice improvements. Sorry to adjust your image, but you know what they say about images and a thousad words. The chin seems off for me. But then she is metalic and it probably should look chunky. I thought I'd let you see another option anyway.

I noticed the chin too but didn't want to mention it incase it appeard as sour grapes. I completely understand what you mean about starting again though. I think I may have done the same.

When you guys say chin, do you mean jawline? Maybe it's called a chin in England/Ireland?

I like what you did Ken, so I'll take a look.

Thanks,
Jim

I think I would have called it "chin" but Ken is Irish so I don't know about him

'Jawline' sounds better. The chin is only the front portion of the jaw, directly below the mouth, unless you are talking about someone with multiple chins that may be produced from the folds of the neck. Just doing my bit to keep the English language decipherable.

Whatever you guys decide I think Ken's suggested change makes quite a bit of difference.
Nice. I guess it all depends on what look you are going for of course.

Rodney

Yes, I think more accurately I should have typed "jaw". Language barrier nullified.