Full Version: Scarecrow
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I have started on the Scarecrow's face. Should I model a nose and eyebrows or leave them for decals? From the sketch they seemed more like decal material but I don't know how well that would work for animating eyebrows. What I have so far is more of a jumping off point so let me know what you think is good or bad about it. Don't be afraid to hurt my feelings, let me have it.
Wires
Wow. He's looking great. Nice and clean. Keep up posted! One crit...the hat could use more waves in the rim.
Nice start! I think your rope around the neck is too thick... The braids of the rope might need to be modeled, unless we can get that detail with displacement.
Jim will have to guide you on the rest, since it is his design.
Jim will have to guide you on the rest, since it is his design.
Yes, it's a good start, Hutch!
Just a few comments:
The neck is little too thick, his head is just a bag tied with rope, so pull that rope a little tighter.
Maybe the head could be a little longer, top to bottom. Round out the forehead more.
You will need to add more geometry around the eyes, especially above the eyes, so the animators can create good facial expressions with his brows. I'm thinking the cloth of his forhead would droop over the eye buttons to express anger, sadness, deep thinking, etc.
The hat seems too round all over. I would like to have some of the bends in it be a bit sharper by reducing the magnitude of some of the cp's.
Since the nose is going to be painted on, I would like to see that area stick out farther...see attached image.
Also the eyes will turn to "look" at what he is seeing, so if they can be oriented to the front, looking straight ahead, it will help the viewer understand what he is looking at.
Sorry for being picky, but I don't call myself a Tweak Junkie for nothing!
I'm looking forward to seeing your progress!
Thanks,
Jim
Just a few comments:
The neck is little too thick, his head is just a bag tied with rope, so pull that rope a little tighter.
Maybe the head could be a little longer, top to bottom. Round out the forehead more.
You will need to add more geometry around the eyes, especially above the eyes, so the animators can create good facial expressions with his brows. I'm thinking the cloth of his forhead would droop over the eye buttons to express anger, sadness, deep thinking, etc.
The hat seems too round all over. I would like to have some of the bends in it be a bit sharper by reducing the magnitude of some of the cp's.
Since the nose is going to be painted on, I would like to see that area stick out farther...see attached image.
Also the eyes will turn to "look" at what he is seeing, so if they can be oriented to the front, looking straight ahead, it will help the viewer understand what he is looking at.
Sorry for being picky, but I don't call myself a Tweak Junkie for nothing!
I'm looking forward to seeing your progress!
Thanks,
Jim
Jim:
How would you envision a "blink" happening? Blinks are essential for making characters alive in animation. I had pictured the actual buttons squashing into a line for an instant. Is that what you were thinking?
How would you envision a "blink" happening? Blinks are essential for making characters alive in animation. I had pictured the actual buttons squashing into a line for an instant. Is that what you were thinking?
Yup, that's just what I was thinking.
Jim
Jim
Hi again, thanks for the input Will and Jim. I thinned up his neck some. May still need to make his head longer but want to see what you think. Added some splinage above the eyes and pushed the nose out but the nose area needs a little more tweaking, from some angles it looks sort of like a ridge. I have tried to make the hat look lumpier. I actually put your sketch in as a roto Jim, so I got it pretty close at least from the side.
I made the eyes face straight ahead. I am not sure how easy it will be to turn them without exposing the back side of the buttons if he looks away from the camera. No need to apologize for being picky, what doesn't kill me only makes the model stronger.
I added in some stitches on the left side seem. What do you think? Should I maybe get rid of the seem and stitches and leave that to textures? I also modeled a twisted style rope. It is sort of patch heavy.
I made the eyes face straight ahead. I am not sure how easy it will be to turn them without exposing the back side of the buttons if he looks away from the camera. No need to apologize for being picky, what doesn't kill me only makes the model stronger.
I added in some stitches on the left side seem. What do you think? Should I maybe get rid of the seem and stitches and leave that to textures? I also modeled a twisted style rope. It is sort of patch heavy.
Hey! Great progress with the changes.
A little more feedback:
I like the modeled stitches and seams. Can an animation director comment on the difficulty of animating a mesh with little details on it like this?
There seems to be a ridge on the forehead as well as the nose area as you mentioned. I think if you space the vertical splines equidistant all across the forehead it will become much smoother. You may have to continue the new forehead splines all the way down to the mouth to help get rid of the nose ridge.
I really like what you did with the wrinkles next to his eyes!
I think we can have the eyes stand out a bit from the face for better range of movement, and maybe have them be more like coat buttons with a loop on the back that the thread goes through. (I hope that makes sense.)
The hat's much better, too.
Thanks!
Jim
*Edit... One other thought, maybe we should be modeling the characters with a more neutral expression on their face.
A little more feedback:
I like the modeled stitches and seams. Can an animation director comment on the difficulty of animating a mesh with little details on it like this?
There seems to be a ridge on the forehead as well as the nose area as you mentioned. I think if you space the vertical splines equidistant all across the forehead it will become much smoother. You may have to continue the new forehead splines all the way down to the mouth to help get rid of the nose ridge.
I really like what you did with the wrinkles next to his eyes!
I think we can have the eyes stand out a bit from the face for better range of movement, and maybe have them be more like coat buttons with a loop on the back that the thread goes through. (I hope that makes sense.)
The hat's much better, too.
Thanks!
Jim
*Edit... One other thought, maybe we should be modeling the characters with a more neutral expression on their face.
Personally, I think he looks pretty stinkin' awesome. I can't wait to see the finished product.
Is there a possibility that these models become available to the general public at the end of the project?
Is there a possibility that these models become available to the general public at the end of the project?
I like the changes. I think you'll need to at least double the number of the stitches at the side of his head.
In the eyes of the sketch, there are two holes in the buttons where the thread would go through to stitch to the head. I like that look--maybe the threads at the back could just stretch to allow the eyes to rotate a little, rather than changing the style of buttons.
I still think there might need to be another spline at each side of the center spline on the forehead to give the scarecrow a little for range to furrow his brows. (unless we use animated bump/displacement maps for those details)
In the eyes of the sketch, there are two holes in the buttons where the thread would go through to stitch to the head. I like that look--maybe the threads at the back could just stretch to allow the eyes to rotate a little, rather than changing the style of buttons.
I still think there might need to be another spline at each side of the center spline on the forehead to give the scarecrow a little for range to furrow his brows. (unless we use animated bump/displacement maps for those details)
Ok, I have put in too many hours for one day. Need to recharge the batteries. Tried some new eyes. I think I like the old ones better. They seemed friendlier or happier. I am not sure I like the rope either so let me know what you think about it too. I added more stitches to the seem which means I also added a ton of hooks. I hope they don't become a problem when animating. Jim, I just noticed your edit about the expression. I will tone down his smile when I get back to work on him.
Mesh, hat hidden. Ok splinage for animation of eyebrows?
Great job, Hutch! I love what you have so far.
The only comment I have is that the button eyes are just a little too big. I could go either way with the buttons, loop in back or visible holes for threads. I just want them to be loose so they can "look" around easily.
The rope does seem a bit busy and too regular. I'm thinking bump or displacement maps, with a hair material for loose threads, would be all we need.
I am hoping the animators will speak up about the animatablity of the eyebrows, but they look good to me. He is just a sack of grain.
Thanks,
Jim
The only comment I have is that the button eyes are just a little too big. I could go either way with the buttons, loop in back or visible holes for threads. I just want them to be loose so they can "look" around easily.
The rope does seem a bit busy and too regular. I'm thinking bump or displacement maps, with a hair material for loose threads, would be all we need.
I am hoping the animators will speak up about the animatablity of the eyebrows, but they look good to me. He is just a sack of grain.
Thanks,
Jim
| QUOTE (JTalbotski @ Aug 25 2005, 09:28 PM) |
| He is just a sack of grain. |
With this being the case, here's how he might look with ears....should his hat ever blow off.
I do like that idea Ken, but I think they should be smaller. Does his hat ever come off in the movie?
Great job on him so far. I love the side stitching.
Great job on him so far. I love the side stitching.
Hutch, that is just beautiful!!! 
Can't sleep. New rope, smaller eyes, mellower expression.
I was also wondering about the hat coming off. If it does come off I need to do alot more to the hat and the top of his head.
I like this rope better but both of them are so heavy. I am thinking that some sort of texture solution may be better like Jim said.
Thanks everyone for the input and encouragement!
I was also wondering about the hat coming off. If it does come off I need to do alot more to the hat and the top of his head.
I like this rope better but both of them are so heavy. I am thinking that some sort of texture solution may be better like Jim said.
Thanks everyone for the input and encouragement!
My thought is that if his hat comes off, we just see straw in place of hair. He looks too much like a cat when the corners are made to look like ears.
Looks great, Hutch! Go to bed.
Jim
Looks great, Hutch! Go to bed.
Jim
| QUOTE (JTalbotski @ Aug 25 2005, 06:28 PM) |
| My thought is that if his hat comes off, we just see straw in place of hair. He looks too much like a cat when the corners are made to look like ears. Looks great, Hutch! Go to bed. Jim |
Are you imagining just a tuft of "hair", or the whole thing covered in "hair"? The tuft idea sound great to me.
I don't envision a hairstyle, but more of a clump of straw stuck on his head, pushed flat by the hat. I am not concerned with the fact that there's nothing keeping it on his head if the hat is removed. People will just accept it as being his hair. If a strawman can be alive, then his straw can stay on his head just as magically.
Jim
Jim
Good stuff Hutch well done! As for hair style I agree with Jim. If you want to 'style' it then go with a Luke Skywalker helmet hair look where it looks like his has was pushing his straw on his head down, but the straw that sticks out below the rim of the hat flares out a bit.
As for eyeblinks, give him enough cloth around the buttons so that we can use that cloth as upper and lower eyelids. Perhaps his creator actually painted eyes on the buttons (he's a scarecrow after all). The color image that Jim created of Scarecrow is perfect. It shows the eyelids I'm talking about. Can we post that here? It would really be useful.
Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com
As for eyeblinks, give him enough cloth around the buttons so that we can use that cloth as upper and lower eyelids. Perhaps his creator actually painted eyes on the buttons (he's a scarecrow after all). The color image that Jim created of Scarecrow is perfect. It shows the eyelids I'm talking about. Can we post that here? It would really be useful.
Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com
How will the eyebrows be handled? Modeled? animated decal?
The hat is so huge, we'll need it to be animatable for ovelapping motion purposes. Both the tip and the floppy brim.
The neck is so short, I'm wondering how we'll turn his head without severe tearing. Maybe it just slides underneath those ropes?
Perhaps the side-stitching would be a job for A:M's fabulous new normal maps?
But that's a fine looking model!
The hat is so huge, we'll need it to be animatable for ovelapping motion purposes. Both the tip and the floppy brim.
The neck is so short, I'm wondering how we'll turn his head without severe tearing. Maybe it just slides underneath those ropes?
Perhaps the side-stitching would be a job for A:M's fabulous new normal maps?
But that's a fine looking model!
We've definitely got to employ WeightMover to our models. That way we don't have to worry about 'tearing' the models. We could bend them any way we want when we animate them.
Check out the flour sack I created here You can download the flour sack model from this webpage.CLICK HERE to go to webpage.
I put that through WeightMover using a method I came up with that keeps the surface smooth no matter how you bend it.
Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com
Check out the flour sack I created here You can download the flour sack model from this webpage.CLICK HERE to go to webpage.
I put that through WeightMover using a method I came up with that keeps the surface smooth no matter how you bend it.
Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com
We can weight the CPs for rigging, not a problem. The rope detail needs to be modeled, not just a bump--Why? Because we are rendering in HD resolution and he will appear in close-up, which I think a textured only rope might not hold up.
Jim, let me know what you think of this roto. Not looking for critiques about the quality of the sketch, just the over all dimensions.
If we use hair for the straw does that mean I can leave that to someone else? Textures and hair are definitely not my forte.
I could add some eyebrow shapes sort of stuck on his forehead. I think it would be closer to the sketch if they were just painted on though. I don't know how well that would work so I will wait til someone says to make the make eyebrows.
If we use hair for the straw does that mean I can leave that to someone else? Textures and hair are definitely not my forte.
I could add some eyebrow shapes sort of stuck on his forehead. I think it would be closer to the sketch if they were just painted on though. I don't know how well that would work so I will wait til someone says to make the make eyebrows.
I would say keep going. We can always make additions, changes, or add more detail. The eyebrows should be modelled, for better control when animating. Oh, if you would like someone else to do the hair/straw that's not a problem. This is all a team effort.
Looking great!
Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com
Looking great!
Frank Silas
http://www.franksilas.com
Hutch,
Your roto was pretty good!
His lower body was just too thin and narrow. Here's a quick proportions rotoscope to show sizes. I wanted him too be a little more chunky and lumpy. Please refer to the original sketch for details.
Thanks,
Jim
Your roto was pretty good!
His lower body was just too thin and narrow. Here's a quick proportions rotoscope to show sizes. I wanted him too be a little more chunky and lumpy. Please refer to the original sketch for details.
Thanks,
Jim
| QUOTE (robcat2075 @ Aug 26 2005, 01:52 AM) |
| The hat is so huge, we'll need it to be animatable for ovelapping motion purposes. Both the tip and the floppy brim. |
Or, can we make cloth stiff enough and non-lively enough to do the same automatically?
Thanks for the roto Jim. I just chopped it into two views and put it in my model. I figured I would show my progress now because I am going to be working alot for the next week starting tonight.
Things I still need to do:
Model hands
model lower body
make some eyebrows
inside of mouth
teeth (any thoughts on what they should look like? or does he even have them?)
tweak
tweak some more
Anything I have forgotten? I wonder if I need to make a knot and loose ends on the rope belt....
It may be next friday before I get a chance to do anything for more than hour at a time so don't think I am quitting.
Things I still need to do:
Model hands
model lower body
make some eyebrows
inside of mouth
teeth (any thoughts on what they should look like? or does he even have them?)
tweak
tweak some more
Anything I have forgotten? I wonder if I need to make a knot and loose ends on the rope belt....
It may be next friday before I get a chance to do anything for more than hour at a time so don't think I am quitting.
This is coming allong really nicely.
I would say however that the corners of the mouth need looking at. Jims drawing shows strong lines around the corners of the mouth. These are the lines under the orbitals of the mouth. You have modeled them to be the lines under the cheek (don't know what i'ts called... lets call it the cheek line). These are two seperate lines.
Jims drawing has no cheek line that I can see. I guess this fits the fact that he has no nostrils as such and the cheek line usualy eminates from above the nostril.
I would suggest that the crease that is preasant at the moment should be moved closer to the mouth so as to suggest the orbital crease thing... this accentuates the cheeky mouth-smile which he has.
The inclusion of cheek lines would be another matter for consideration.
I would say however that the corners of the mouth need looking at. Jims drawing shows strong lines around the corners of the mouth. These are the lines under the orbitals of the mouth. You have modeled them to be the lines under the cheek (don't know what i'ts called... lets call it the cheek line). These are two seperate lines.
Jims drawing has no cheek line that I can see. I guess this fits the fact that he has no nostrils as such and the cheek line usualy eminates from above the nostril.
I would suggest that the crease that is preasant at the moment should be moved closer to the mouth so as to suggest the orbital crease thing... this accentuates the cheeky mouth-smile which he has.
The inclusion of cheek lines would be another matter for consideration.
Wow! I'm lovin' it!
Hmmm. I guess I never thought about teeth. I'm open to suggestions. How about kernels of corn. (White corn might be less of a gross-out.)
Yes, please! I would like a knot and loose ends to the rope added.
I had thought the eyebrows would be part of the face map, not geometry. Unless there's an overwhelming need from the animators that it be geometry, let's leave them off.
Great job, Hutch. It will be a let down not being able to see new progress for a week, but you did a lot already.
I would like to see some drooping of the shirt over the belt here and there, as you find time to work on it.
Thanks,
Jim
Hmmm. I guess I never thought about teeth. I'm open to suggestions. How about kernels of corn. (White corn might be less of a gross-out.)
Yes, please! I would like a knot and loose ends to the rope added.
I had thought the eyebrows would be part of the face map, not geometry. Unless there's an overwhelming need from the animators that it be geometry, let's leave them off.
Great job, Hutch. It will be a let down not being able to see new progress for a week, but you did a lot already.
I would like to see some drooping of the shirt over the belt here and there, as you find time to work on it.
Thanks,
Jim
I have attached a pic to show what I mean. The lines you have are somewhere between jims and the cheek lines that I have drawn on. I don't know if cheek lines would be needed but perhaps they may help?
For teeth...maybe the caps off toothpaste tubes?
| QUOTE (John Keates @ Aug 26 2005, 06:34 PM) |
| I have attached a pic to show what I mean. The lines you have are somewhere between jims and the cheek lines that I have drawn on. I don't know if cheek lines would be needed but perhaps they may help? |
John,
I think cheek lines would only be there if he had a nose. I want the cheeks to crease only where the mouth pushes into it when he smiles. I think Hutch left the cheeks up in a smile position when he reshaped the mouth into a neutral position.
Jim
OK, fair enough.
Yah, Jim is right about the cheeks. I did move them down some but not enough I guess. I will work on that.
My first thought for the teeth was corn too. But yah, yellow teeth might look sort of disgusting.
I am glad you think the eyebrows can be done with textures Jim. I think it will look better that way if it works.
I will work on the belt and shirt drooping over it too. Over all does the jacket look rumpled enough? I was thinking of adding some wrinkles and fold type stuff.
Oh, I made the seem where his sleeves meet the shoulder by making the splines that run length wise down his arm dead end. So where it would normally be one continuous spline going from his neck to his wrist it is now two splines that meet at the seem. I have never tried this sort of thing on a joint. I wonder if it will become a problem.
I am glad you are happy with it so far Jim. This feels sort of like doing an apprenticeship under Michael Angelo
My first thought for the teeth was corn too. But yah, yellow teeth might look sort of disgusting.
I am glad you think the eyebrows can be done with textures Jim. I think it will look better that way if it works.
I will work on the belt and shirt drooping over it too. Over all does the jacket look rumpled enough? I was thinking of adding some wrinkles and fold type stuff.
Oh, I made the seem where his sleeves meet the shoulder by making the splines that run length wise down his arm dead end. So where it would normally be one continuous spline going from his neck to his wrist it is now two splines that meet at the seem. I have never tried this sort of thing on a joint. I wonder if it will become a problem.
I am glad you are happy with it so far Jim. This feels sort of like doing an apprenticeship under Michael Angelo
| QUOTE (Hutch @ Aug 27 2005, 08:21 AM) |
| I will work on the belt and shirt drooping over it too. Over all does the jacket look rumpled enough? I was thinking of adding some wrinkles and fold type stuff. Oh, I made the seem where his sleeves meet the shoulder by making the splines that run length wise down his arm dead end. So where it would normally be one continuous spline going from his neck to his wrist it is now two splines that meet at the seem. I have never tried this sort of thing on a joint. I wonder if it will become a problem. I am glad you are happy with it so far Jim. This feels sort of like doing an apprenticeship under Michael Angelo |
Yes, I would like to see more folds and bulges to give a sense that he's not fleshy but stuffed with bunches of straw/hay/whatever and some clumps have slid down inside and are pushing out his jacket here and there.
Where the rope belt tightens around his waist it would be good to have his jacket bunch up in places.
I don't know if the separate arm meshes will cause a problem, but I think it's best to keep things closed up as much as possible, considering we don't know what kind of rendering effects we will be using. Some may not work as well with open meshes. You can accomplish the same thing in the shoulder seam with a continuous mesh, by just peaking the horizontal splines that run through his shoulder. A quick way to do that is select all the cp's of that loop with the group selection tool (G). Peak them (P). Then click on the spline that goes around the arm/shoulder, hit the comma key (,) and press the letter (O) key. You may have to adjust the bias some or adjust the neighboring splines to recreate the bulges.
Yeah, you must mean the Ninja Turtle.
Jim
I found a little more time to work than I had expected. I don't think I explained the seem on the arms clearly. They aren't seperate meshes. It is like I extruded the sleeve past the arm hole in the chest, then deleted the two circle splines at the end of the sleeve. Then I attached the second cp from the end to the existing arm hole spline. So I had dangling splines coming off of the sleeve into the chest but I have deleted the danglers.
He is pretty much all there now. Still needs inside of mouth, teeth and tongue, ropes on wrists, knot and ends of belt, and more work on the folds and lumps.
He is pretty much all there now. Still needs inside of mouth, teeth and tongue, ropes on wrists, knot and ends of belt, and more work on the folds and lumps.
Very nice! He's really coming together.
I don't have any important crits at the moment, so I'll wait to see the tweaks that you mentioned. Just one other thing he needs is a hatband around the base of the hat.
Thanks!
Jim
I don't have any important crits at the moment, so I'll wait to see the tweaks that you mentioned. Just one other thing he needs is a hatband around the base of the hat.
Thanks!
Jim
That's some progress! 
A comment on the seam stiches.....They could probably be seperate meshes if they're causing any problems as they are now.
A comment on the seam stiches.....They could probably be seperate meshes if they're causing any problems as they are now.
Rich, can you post the latest wireframe of his face? I'm a little worried about the splineage around the eyes/brows--but I'm not sure if you've reworked that or not.
From the last thing I saw, the density was a little light for eyebrow expression.
From the last thing I saw, the density was a little light for eyebrow expression.
Zach, I am pretty sure the eyebrows are mostly unchanged since the last wire I posted. If it does need more splines, does it need more horizontal, vertical or both?
Hutch,
Wow, this guy is looking good!
The rope bothers me though.
It's braided rather than twisted.
A braided rope for this time period seems out of place and too crafty.
To me, a twisted rope relates more to manual labor, farming and such.
And, of course, to a noose rather than a decorative item.
Part of this character's pathos is the noose around his neck.
But, that may be just me.
Dan
Wow, this guy is looking good!
The rope bothers me though.
It's braided rather than twisted.
A braided rope for this time period seems out of place and too crafty.
To me, a twisted rope relates more to manual labor, farming and such.
And, of course, to a noose rather than a decorative item.
Part of this character's pathos is the noose around his neck.
But, that may be just me.
Dan
I tend to agree. The normal rope seemed more earthy...and I prefered the look. But we mustn't forget that the two characters are "royalty" now and have had their images spruced up.
Jim is the art director.
After looking at the 2 rope styles, I do prefer the twisted version. It reads easier as rope to me. That is the only reason I would like to go back to that style.
Please, let's not over-think things like this. Or at least don't expect me to. It's just a rope to seal the grain in his sack head and keep it attached to his body.
Jim
Please, let's not over-think things like this. Or at least don't expect me to. It's just a rope to seal the grain in his sack head and keep it attached to his body.
Jim
| QUOTE (Hutch @ Aug 30 2005, 07:34 AM) |
| Zach, I am pretty sure the eyebrows are mostly unchanged since the last wire I posted. If it does need more splines, does it need more horizontal, vertical or both? |
I think both. On a human face, it's very important to read the wrinkles of the brow and forehead. I think it could be important here, too, especially since his eyebrows are painted on and he doesn't have pupils & whites in his eyes; we're really going to need those wrinkles to help him emote.
(I pity Ed's team, who are doing Yoop's Castle, who'll have to make him look scared without whites in the eyes.)
But, as always, Jim is the final authority...
Since the eybrows are going to be decalled, I think that we can create most of the winkles for those poses as bump decals, like in the Jason Osipa book.
Yes, but since this is being rendered in HD I would at least add three horizontal splines for the brow lines.
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