Animation Test, Here i go again Options

[thejobe]

well i think its been about 5 or 7 years since i last tried at character animation.
so i thought i would give it a go again when i saw this basic character model in the sharing page.
last time i tried, i did a jump animation. so thought it would be good to try the same motion.
i kept it pretty simple with the motions.
can you who have been animating a while critique it for me and maybe give me a few pointers as
to what I'm doing right or wrong. please be honest

 jump_test.mov ( 981.12k ) Number of downloads: 221


Thanks

[robcat2075]

Jumping is a basic but still complicated motion. It's difficult to get it all right on the first try.

I made some notes on jumpin a while back...

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=304249

take a look at those (mostly just the notes in white for the extremes) and tell me what you think you missed.

[Rodney]

I haven't looked at Robert's video again so I shouldn't spoil your exchange with him on your jump.
Using the 80/20 rule I'd say you'd get the most bang for the buck in improvement by adjusting the symmetry/twinning of your current jump so that the legs and arms don't move in such perfect sync with each other. I'll also assume you are well aware of the pass-throughs where the hands pass through the legs and the feet slip through the floor. As a means of signaling that the feet floor relationship is already known my suggetion would be to Turn Off the Ground and render without it. In that way the viewer can focus on what is there in the animation.

As for a positive... what you've got there is smoothly animated throughout.

That IKJoe is a fun character.

[thejobe]

Jumping is a basic but still complicated motion. It's difficult to get it all right on the first try.

I made some notes on jumpin a while back...

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=304249

take a look at those (mostly just the notes in white for the extremes) and tell me what you think you missed.

that was nicely explained but sadly i have no understanding of what you were trying to get across. not sure how to interpret those movements into my jump.

[robcat2075]

My character jumps up in the air and lands again. Your character jumps up in the air and lands again. There's a lot in common.


Do this... do one broad jump seen from the side. Jump and land. Just that much and post that and we'll look at that.

[thejobe]

i watched the video a few more times and this was the best outcome i got so far

Attached File(s)

 jump_test_side.mov ( 433.24k ) Number of downloads: 76

 

[robcat2075]

i watched the video a few more times and this was the best outcome i got so far

OK, I will get you some comments on that!

And if anyone else has comments, don't wait for me, have at it.

[Gorf]

i watched the video a few more times and this was the best outcome i got so far

I liked the second one better. The first one looked like he'd been dragged into the air by some unknown force, and his legs just straightened before they too were dragged off the ground.

The second one looked like the character was putting some force into the ground to get himself airborne.

If you can get a set of the Jeff Lew animation DVDs, that will help a lot. Review here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouuZ0Z2GeSo

[thejobe]

i watched the video a few more times and this was the best outcome i got so far

I liked the second one better. The first one looked like he'd been dragged into the air by some unknown force, and his legs just straightened before they too were dragged off the ground.

The second one looked like the character was putting some force into the ground to get himself airborne.

If you can get a set of the Jeff Lew animation DVDs, that will help a lot. Review here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouuZ0Z2GeSo

That looks like an amazing DVD. Just wish I had the money for it, maybe in a few months.
On the jump I'm trying to just get a feel for the movements. Since I have no prior background in any form of animation I really just going out on a whim with these.

[Bruce Del Porte]

On the first video

1. The first hop up doesn't use his feet to thrust up. Try jumping keeping your feet flat, very difficult.
2. On the 6th or 7th frame his body's momentum seems to stop moving screen left. It should probably continue through the jump and it should appear that he is thrusting screen left with his left foot. Once in the air, he wouldn't really be able to accelerate his body toward screen left. You may only have to remove the "X" keys at frames around 6 & 14 to make his body move smoothly across.
3. Good landing, maybe add a little overshoot of his movement to screen left and recover on the way up.

4. On the big jump, good wind up but his arms should probably start forward before he starts rising.

5. As he rises, his legs should recoil a bit from the stretch. Remember on a freefall, he is accelerating downward all the way to impact, stretching (reaching) for the ground. This means the distance traveled from the impact frame to frame-1 should be greater than from frame-1 to frame-2 which is greater than frame -2 to frame-3 etc. otherwise he seems to be slowing just before impact. Your spacing is pretty even. All deceleration needs to happen after impact.

On the second video

1. Maybe start his bend at the hips sooner in his windup

2. He should probably leave being flat footed much earlier in the move up, well before his knees lock

3. His legs are thrusting his hips straight up but when in midair the hips start moving frame right. The hips need to move more or less strait down or his legs need to thrust his weight forward while feet are on the ground. A simple rule here is that his center of mass (more or less this hips) maintain momentum given to them by thrust from his legs and gravity. It is hard to accelerate in a new direction in midair.

Really good start. Good wind ups and good eases into landing.

[robcat2075]

One quick rule. You jump by pushing your body away from the earth with your legs and hopefully get enough momentum built up to keep going after your legs can't reach the ground any more. The fastest the body will move will be the last instant that the legs can reach the ground to push. After that, there's no push and gravity immediately begins to slow you down. If the body moves faster up after leaving the ground than it ever moved during the push... something is wrong. It can't do that.

It is hard to accelerate in a new direction in midair.

Damn near impossible, except for birds and flying saucers.

[thejobe]

im posting the actions for you to play with so you can give me a better idea what what im looking at.

Attached File(s)

 jumping_side_action.act ( 8.98k ) Number of downloads: 12

 

[thejobe]

i took another approach at it. instead of doing each movement one step at a time, i did the begining of the jump and the end in one move and then worked on the middle one bone at a time

Attached File(s)

 jump_test_side3.mov ( 677.84k ) Number of downloads: 60

 

[mouseman]

You have some really good movement. I especially like the movement of the upper body when he lands, how the chest continues to rotate down as he compresses (kind of like the bouncing ball!).

Some suggestions:

1. When rendering something for critique, it helps to have the frames burned in. There is a post effect that does that. [Edit: But I suppose that would only be available in a chor.]

2. It looks like this model uses the A:M 2000 rig. If you have a choice of rig, I suggest something newer, such as the excellent A:M 2008 or Squetch rigs, which have a separate control to lift up the heel. I'm not sure about LiteRig or the Anzovin TSM2 rig. The heel lifter makes it easier to deal with the toes sticking to the ground while the heel leaves the ground in those brief moments before the character is completely in the air; it would also make the landing on the toes and subsequent rolling down of the heel easier (notice how his toes slide between the frame they make contact and the next frame). If you don't have a choice of rig, you are forced to fight with the rig as you are doing here.

3. When he gets down into his squat at the 1/3 mark, his back is arched back. I think most people would be arched forward, as if part of a spring that is being compressed and ready to be sprung. They also tend to start being on their toes (not their heels) at this moment (hard to do on the A:M2000 rig). If you do arch the back forward, note that you will be moving part of his upper torso forward, so to maintain his center of gravity you may need to move his hips backwards enough so the character maintains balance.

4. You could add a wee bit of secondary motion in the head after he lands that lags behind the chest. But be careful, don't overdo the head movement.

I really like how you are taking multiple attempts at this, trying different things on each attempt. I usually get caught up on tweaking the same thing, and what you are doing is probably much better for learning.

[robcat2075]

that is much improved!

Comments:

 JobeJumpComments_300.mov ( 34.61mb ) Number of downloads: 72


and the marked animations in the comment video:

 JasonJumpMarked.mov ( 1.02mb ) Number of downloads: 31

 RCHJumpMarked.mov ( 5.2mb ) Number of downloads: 30

[thejobe]

that is much improved!

Comments:

 JobeJumpComments_300.mov ( 34.61mb ) Number of downloads: 72


and the marked animations in the comment video:

 JasonJumpMarked.mov ( 1.02mb ) Number of downloads: 31

 RCHJumpMarked.mov ( 5.2mb ) Number of downloads: 30

i think i understand it a lot better now. that last jump i did the hip target i just figured the time i wanted the jump to be, set the beginning and end marks and then i guessed how high he would be in the middle (which actually could be any height really) and then i just started adjusting all the bones to move along with the movements.
as far as changing the curve. im not 100% sure how to accomplish that but ill see what i can do.

the rig. i know 0% about rigs. never worked with them before. whenever i did something with bones before it was for very simple models, so character rigging is well out of my comfort zone. so im working with what is giving to me, and i wont know the difference at this point.

and yes! how did you know i was going with a forward jump next! i guess its part of learning animation as a whole.

thanks for taking the time to look over these its been a big help.

i will post an updated video later tonight.

[thejobe]

ok so.
i banged my head against the wall for about 30 minutes then tried to think about what i was doing wrong (i don't recommend trying this for it hurts a lot)
i went back thru the jump and adjusted from the hips down. once i got to the toes and made them level with the line on the screen i played back the animation, a problem came up.
his hips and legs were acting like he wanted to jump backwards, couldn't figure out why it was doing this for over an hour. the only solution i could come up with is to move his hips forward in the jump. after thinking about it im guessing that his center of gravity shifted forward before the jump and to compensate his hips had to follow.
im not sure if its correct but its the best attempt so far.
or i just screwed it all up and have to start over again. (god i hope not).

Attached File(s)

 jump_test_side4.mov ( 924.38k ) Number of downloads: 40

 

[robcat2075]

Those toes are definitely not staying in place. Here's a tut on counter animating

Also notice that you're up and down aren't the same length of time any more. The up trip in the air needs to be the same as the down trip in the air.

Also note that the rig doesn't simulate anything about proper body motion for you. It's up to you to put everything where it needs to be at the right time. If something is not in the right place at the right time, move it so it is.

[thejobe]

im just not sure how to make that work here. i thought thats what i did but i guess its just too messed up to fix now.
its apparent i have no clue what i am doing.looks like i have some more reading to do. ill try again in a few more months i guess.
thx again for the help though. but i just am not getting.

[robcat2075]

im just not sure how to make that work here.

What about move-it-to-the-right-place is not doable?

[thejobe]

What about move-it-to-the-right-place is not doable?

thats where the problem is. i don't know where the right place is suppose to be.

here is the project file. im at a complete lost at this point.

Attached File(s)

 jumping.zip ( 166.96k ) Number of downloads: 49

 

[robcat2075]

What about move-it-to-the-right-place is not doable?

thats where the problem is. i don't know where the right place is suppose to be.

Did you watch the tut on counter animating? that shows exactly how to line the toe up with a marker so it isn't moving.


In general, for a character with such long feet, you should pose him at the start so that his body isn't right over his heels, but somewhere between the heels and the toes.

If he's going to jump straight up and he's pushing off with his toes he'll really have to have his weight over the toes, but with his feet so long that wont' look right. You'll have to cheat it a bit.

Is that what you mean by "the right place"?

[thejobe]

yes that is what i mean. the toe really is in the same place. took like 2 hours to do it but i made sure it stayed on the same line.
so not sure how its moving, maybe this character is just too hard to animate for someone like me.

[Bruce Del Porte]

maybe this character is just too hard to animate for someone like me.

NONSENCE!

I think you are getting erratic feet placement because you aren't animating the foot targets. Just animating the hips does pull the feet off the ground but you aren't really controlling their trajectory. The legs, feet, toes need to be under the control of the IK foot targets. The legs bend correctly when the hips come down but you need to raise the foot targets as the hips take the body above flat footed standing. When coming down, the foot target needs to be in control through impact.

[robcat2075]

More comments...

 jumpCommentsB.mov ( 26.2mb ) Number of downloads: 71

[thejobe]

few questions... where do i find that graph and the one with bars to edit those things. if i knew i had all that this would have been a lot easier on me.
also how do i get the ruler to come up on the action window, i dont have one of those.

[robcat2075]

few questions... where do i find that graph and the one with bars to edit those things. if i knew i had all that this would have been a lot easier on me.
also how do i get the ruler to come up on the action window, i dont have one of those.

the rulers are turned on with the... you'll never guess... "Show Rulers" button! It's at the top and looks like a ruler.

the background grid is turned in Options>Action>Display Grid

There's one like that for chors in Options>Choreography too.

You can also turn them on and off with SHIFT-3

And you make markers by clicking on a ruler.

[robcat2075]

A video you might find very illuminating at this point is my "Keyframing basics", which you can find in the screencam tuts link in my signature.

[thejobe]

OK after i recovered from the head injury (thanks to the wall i banged into many times) i sat back down and went over the videos, and over, and over, and over. till my eyes bled.

this was the best outcome so far from that headache.

i know the hip is not centered and his weight looks off, so no need to mention it. i just wanted to get something out before work. i will fix it when i get back.
other than that let me know if this is any better.

P.S.! key frames are so much better to work with than just moving thing around on the screen.

Attached File(s)

 jump_test_side5.mov ( 459.95k ) Number of downloads: 28

 

[robcat2075]

I like the up and down motion better. I thing you've got the slow in and out at the top going well.

Yes, he does look like he's leaning backwards during his jump.

He's probably in the air a bit too long and that's what gives it the moon-gravity look, but overall this is much improved.

[thejobe]

i fixed the balance issue the best i could. also shortened the amount of time he spends at the peak. i think.

Attached File(s)

 jump_test_side6.mov ( 484.67k ) Number of downloads: 27

 

[robcat2075]

I suppose the basic goal is

-move weight over the toes while he's crouching
-keep the weight over the toes while he's jumping and landing
-move the weight back towards the heels as he recovers

You've pretty much got that going.


His feet are very long so it may not look right to shift him so far forward from his standing position, but I'd experiment to see how close you could get so he'd really be pushing up from where his toes are contacting the floor. You may already be at the happy medium.

(His toes are still wandering below the ground.)

Here's my quick attempt at getting his weight further forward over the toes during the pushing and landing poses. This is just the key poses and I dont' feel i have it quite right.

 jumpingBlockedD.prj ( 187.45k ) Number of downloads: 13



It would probably be helpful to shoot someone from the side doing this jump-in-place to really see when the hips and body are moved forward and back.

That would be a good thing for you to do to investigate this further.

[Bruce Del Porte]

Much much better!

In order to get his weight a little more forward on the windup, maybe start getting an arm swing going. Arms swing back as he leans forward onto the balls of his feet (Arm's mass counter balances the hips moving forward keeping the CG balanced). Arms start to swing forward and up just before (a few frames) he explodes up with his legs.

Keep going, it is going to look great

[thejobe]

just to get a better idea of where i am and what you did, i did a side by side
although my jump is longer for setup and finish the timing in the air is about the same so i believe that is good.
i can see the diferences in the jumps as far as balance goes but im not sure how to translate that into the jump on my side.
the points of where the feet leave the ground are dramaticly different. i can see now that i have been treating it like the guy is wearing large clown shoes rather than them being his toes. also my landing is much harder almost as if he weighs 100 lbs more than the guy on the right.

this one is both jumps at begining

 jump_test_jobe_and_robcat.mov ( 1.46mb ) Number of downloads: 23


this jump is showing the timing in the air.

 jump_timing_jobe_and_robcat.mov ( 1.42mb ) Number of downloads: 31

[robcat2075]

Here's my quick attempt at getting his weight further forward over the toes during the pushing and landing poses.

Mine is not really an exploration of the best timing. It's in the ball park, but there are others.

Mostly I just wanted to show it's possible to pose his weight farther forward so when he's jumping it really is over his toes when he is pushing with his legs.



All your legs can really do is push your body straight away from where ever they are touching. So if you want to go straight away from the earth (up) you need the body to be up from (above) the contact point. If the weight is not directly over, some front or back motion will happen.

Look at these three cases. The blue arrow is where they are contacting the ground. Where is each one's mass in relation to that point? The first one is obviously not able to jump straight up from his pose. the second is close but sill has his mass behind the contact point. Only the last one of these is really posed to go straight up when he straightens out

[thejobe]

i understand the pose in standing up and the top of the jump. but in the "squash" what is suppose to line up with what? is it sholders, hip, feet (or toes in this case)

[robcat2075]

i understand the pose in standing up and the top of the jump. but in the "squash" what is suppose to line up with what? is it sholders, hip, feet (or toes in this case)

You have to try to imagine where the center of all that mass is. The center of gravity on a person varies depending on how he's standing or bending or crouching or slouching or whatever.

[mouseman]

You have to try to imagine where the center of all that mass is. The center of gravity on a person varies depending on how he's standing or bending or crouching or slouching or whatever.

... And where his/her limbs are.

[thejobe]

You have to try to imagine where the center of all that mass is. The center of gravity on a person varies depending on how he's standing or bending or crouching or slouching or whatever.

... And where his/her limbs are.

i haven't even implemented the arms yet. when i get that far i think i will know where they go.

[thejobe]

I'm bringing this thread back to the front to continue from where I left off last summer.
There are 3 thing I want to learn how to do by end of this year.
1. model at least 2 complex objects. (No more rakes or sticks)
2. Model and rig a character myself
3. Learn to animate that character to some degree correctly.

So ill be going back and forth between projects.
I think one of the models will be the lancer evo model.
so any feed back during this process will be welcomed with opened arms.
So lets all learn together over this year and make it an amazing one!

[robcat2075]

I'm bringing this thread back to the front to continue from where I left off last summer.
There are 3 thing I want to learn how to do by end of this year.
1. model at least 2 complex objects. (No more rakes or sticks)
2. Model and rig a character myself
3. Learn to animate that character to some degree correctly.

So ill be going back and forth between projects.
I think one of the models will be the lancer evo model.
so any feed back during this process will be welcomed with opened arms.
So lets all learn together over this year and make it an amazing one!

All good goals!

[thejobe]

Well New year, New Lessons to learn!

i continue my jumping animation with forward jumping.
i changed to thom model since he is super basic and works better for what im doing.
this is my first crack at it.
 jump_forward.mov ( 271.6k ) Number of downloads: 11

[thejobe]

I already fixed some things wrong with the timing.
and added some arm movements
 jump_forward_b.mov ( 345.79k ) Number of downloads: 22

[robcat2075]

b was better.

The essential problem i see is that he's barely jumping up at all. There's no way he could stay in the air that long with having achieved that little altitude.

[robcat2075]

I though of an experimental way to coordinate time in the air and height of jump.

Suppose you want him in the air for 12 frames. Get out a video camera, a camera phone will do, and shoot yourself dropping a ball from various heights and count frames until you find one that takes half that time to reach the ground.

The time to jump up is always the same as the time to fall back down, so whatever height it took a ball to fall in 6 frames will be the height Thom needs to rise to in the middle to be in the air for 12 frames.

[thejobe]

ok ill experiment with that..
i think what happened was that i tried to move him too far for how many frames i used. thats why it seems off.

[thejobe]

i restarted that jump from scratch.
this one seems a bit better but something seems off.
 jump_forward_c.mov ( 256.54k ) Number of downloads: 11

[robcat2075]

i restarted that jump from scratch.
this one seems a bit better but something seems off.
 jump_forward_c.mov ( 256.54k ) Number of downloads: 11

the BIG thing... it's too slow.

I retimed it a bit in Aftereffects; something like this would feel more natural:


 JobeJumpRetimed.mov ( 1.06mb ) Number of downloads: 20

[robcat2075]

I forgot... i also raised the middle of the jump up. You can see the bottom of the frame move up briefly to simulate that.