 Grainy Shadows - :(, can't seem to get rid of grain in shadows no matter how many passe |
Hash, Inc. Forums > Technical Direction and Development (Learning Animation:Master) > A:M Rendering, Compositing and Special Effects > Texturing, Lighting and Effects  |
 Jan 4 2010, 12:11 PM
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#1
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New User  Group: )A:M User( Posts: 27 Joined: 14-July 05 From: Maryland Member No.: 7,325 Name: Tommy D'Aquino Hardware Platform: Mac/Win  |
 I can't seem to get rid of the grain in the shadows of this scene I'm playing with. I've tried using the A-buffer, I've tried multi-pass 9 (3X3), 16 (4X4), 25 (5X5), and 64 (8X8) but it still renders grainy. The scene is just set up w/ 2 lights, both suns, the one from the right is 100% w/ shadows (5 rays), while the front light is a 45% fill. I've even rendered w/ rays up as high as 40 (at 64 (8X8) multi-pass - attached) and it's STILL grainy! Any suggestions? Why am I getting so much grain? What is the best way to reduce or remove this?
A:M 14c Thanks, TommyDAQ |
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Jan 4 2010, 12:43 PM
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#2
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 OVERSERVED! Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 5,384 Joined: 22-May 04 From: the Moon Member No.: 3,042 Name: John Bigboote (aka Matt Campbell) A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
Are you rendering with Ambient Occlusion? Do you have a roughness value set for the floor and the letters?
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Jan 4 2010, 12:52 PM
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#3
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New User Group: )A:M User( Posts: 27 Joined: 14-July 05 From: Maryland Member No.: 7,325 Name: Tommy D'Aquino Hardware Platform: Mac/Win |
QUOTE(John Bigboote @ Jan 4 2010, 12:43 PM)  Are you rendering with Ambient Occlusion? Do you have a roughness value set for the floor and the letters? I'm not rendering with Ambient Occulusion - I don't really understand what it is or does (same with subsurface scattering) - but I do have an open sky. The BG is just a decaled tube w/ a high ambient value. As far as I know, there roughness set on the surface of the letters or the ground, unless it's set there by default. I haven't changed it, but I'll look. |
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Jan 4 2010, 12:54 PM
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serial explainer Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 19,237 Joined: 5-October 03 From: Dallas, Texas Member No.: 544 A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
How much do you really need true soft shadows?
I'd set rays to 1 and the width of the light to 0 for sharp shadows
or set a large light width for fading shadows
-------------------- Robert Holmén
------ this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests 80,756 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube I'm a 2D wannabe: the thick and the thin of it my screencam tuts All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about. I solved your problem? buy me something (used is OK!) Big thanks to... Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar! |
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Jan 4 2010, 12:54 PM
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#5
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New User Group: )A:M User( Posts: 27 Joined: 14-July 05 From: Maryland Member No.: 7,325 Name: Tommy D'Aquino Hardware Platform: Mac/Win |
QUOTE(TommyDAQ @ Jan 4 2010, 12:52 PM) QUOTE(John Bigboote @ Jan 4 2010, 12:43 PM) Are you rendering with Ambient Occlusion? Do you have a roughness value set for the floor and the letters? I'm not rendering with Ambient Occulusion - I don't really understand what it is or does (same with subsurface scattering) - but I do have an open sky. The BG is just a decaled tube w/ a high ambient value. As far as I know, there roughness set on the surface of the letters or the ground, unless it's set there by default. I haven't changed it, but I'll look. Roughness set to 0 on everything. |
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Jan 4 2010, 12:57 PM
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#6
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New User Group: )A:M User( Posts: 27 Joined: 14-July 05 From: Maryland Member No.: 7,325 Name: Tommy D'Aquino Hardware Platform: Mac/Win |
QUOTE(robcat2075 @ Jan 4 2010, 12:54 PM) How much do you really need true soft shadows? I'd set rays to 1 and the width of the light to 0 for sharp shadows or set a large light width for fading shadows Does that work with Suns, or just Kliegs? |
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Jan 4 2010, 01:04 PM
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#7
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serial explainer Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 19,237 Joined: 5-October 03 From: Dallas, Texas Member No.: 544 A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
that's for any ray traced light. Kleigs can be raytraced if you set them to be that. Sun shadows are only ray traced
-------------------- Robert Holmén
------ this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests 80,756 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube I'm a 2D wannabe: the thick and the thin of it my screencam tuts All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about. I solved your problem? buy me something (used is OK!) Big thanks to... Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar! |
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Jan 4 2010, 01:06 PM
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#8
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New User Group: )A:M User( Posts: 27 Joined: 14-July 05 From: Maryland Member No.: 7,325 Name: Tommy D'Aquino Hardware Platform: Mac/Win |
QUOTE(robcat2075 @ Jan 4 2010, 01:04 PM) that's for any ray traced light. Kleigs can be raytraced if you set them to be that. Sun shadows are only ray traced Thanks, I didn't know that (been away from this software for TOOO long). Anyway, I reduced to 1 ray and its still very grainy. |
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Jan 4 2010, 01:06 PM
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#9
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OVERSERVED! Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 5,384 Joined: 22-May 04 From: the Moon Member No.: 3,042 Name: John Bigboote (aka Matt Campbell) A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
Wow- another good trick from Robert!
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Jan 4 2010, 01:13 PM
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 Honorary human Group: Mentor Posts: 3,418 Joined: 18-September 03 From: Dobbs Ferry NY Member No.: 68 Name: Gerry Mooney A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Mac/Win |
Just to throw out a few ideas, have you tried z-buffered shadows instead of ray-traced? And do you get that roughness when the camera is at a different angle, like less oblique to the ground plane?
-------------------- "When fortune comes, seize her firmly by the forelock, for I tell you she is bald in back." - Leonardo daVinci
::::www.mooneyart.com:::::The Gravity Poster::::Sister Mary Dracula::::Mooney's Modules:::Nightcallers::::See my 3D portfolio::::View my resume:::: |
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Jan 4 2010, 01:14 PM
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#11
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serial explainer Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 19,237 Joined: 5-October 03 From: Dallas, Texas Member No.: 544 A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
QUOTE(TommyDAQ @ Jan 4 2010, 03:06 PM) QUOTE(robcat2075 @ Jan 4 2010, 01:04 PM) that's for any ray traced light. Kleigs can be raytraced if you set them to be that. Sun shadows are only ray traced Thanks, I didn't know that (been away from this software for TOOO long). Anyway, I reduced to 1 ray and its still very grainy. how are you getting grain with one ray? Use the regular render not Multi-pass Post a sample PRJ if you can. -------------------- Robert Holmén
------ this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests 80,756 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube I'm a 2D wannabe: the thick and the thin of it my screencam tuts All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about. I solved your problem? buy me something (used is OK!) Big thanks to... Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar! |
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Jan 4 2010, 01:53 PM
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 PatchWorker Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 3,880 Joined: 19-September 03 From: Karlsruhe, Germany Member No.: 215 Name: Gerald Zum Gahr A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
You can use 1 Ray... this will create hard shadows (which shouldnt be grainy... be sure to uncheck "Distribute to Passes" in the Shadow-Options, just in case).
Dont use AO or increase the AO-quality-setting in the renderingsettings. *Fuchur* -------------------- "I know, that I don't know."
See my projects, tutorials and much more at www.PatchWork3d.de Name: Gerald Zum Gahr, alias Fuchur Do want to see my favorite A:M-images? Best of A:M collected by Gerald Zum Gahr Searching for a *.X-Exporter(DirectX) or a *.dts-Exporter(Torque) for A:M? Exporter Page And how can I export to *.FBX-files or other 3d- / game-engines? FBX-Pipeline to Unity3d / DirectX-Pipeline to Quest3d Need more converters? *.obj OBJ), *.lwo , *.act or *.dxf ? Arthur Walaseks' Exporters Searching for great and free plugins? www.sgross.com by Steffen Gross You are searching for tutorials? More video- and text-tutorials can be found here: Tutorial section of PW3d You want to make your own video tutorial? Recommended Tools and Step By Step Instructions "RMB" means "Right Mouse Button"! |
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Jan 4 2010, 03:41 PM
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#13
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New User Group: )A:M User( Posts: 27 Joined: 14-July 05 From: Maryland Member No.: 7,325 Name: Tommy D'Aquino Hardware Platform: Mac/Win |
Ok, 1 ray, no multi-pass and shadows are solid - no grain! At least I'm getting somewhere! I may try setting to Klieg and rendering buffered shadows, but I'd like to be able to resolve this grain thing properly.
Client wanted something that resembled this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUSj1LAmyGU My file was just an early concept to show I could set up something similar - not much put into it yet, but the grain was really throwing me and I wanted to resolve that before I moved on... Project is attached.... 
letters.prj ( 890.82k )
Number of downloads: 6
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Jan 4 2010, 03:52 PM
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#14
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PatchWorker Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 3,880 Joined: 19-September 03 From: Karlsruhe, Germany Member No.: 215 Name: Gerald Zum Gahr A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
Using more rays will make it less grainy too... but the renderingtimes are rising to...
For that kind of situation you could use Z-Buffer-Shadows... they can be made soft very easy, will render fast and willl not be grainy... *Fuchur* -------------------- "I know, that I don't know."
See my projects, tutorials and much more at www.PatchWork3d.de Name: Gerald Zum Gahr, alias Fuchur Do want to see my favorite A:M-images? Best of A:M collected by Gerald Zum Gahr Searching for a *.X-Exporter(DirectX) or a *.dts-Exporter(Torque) for A:M? Exporter Page And how can I export to *.FBX-files or other 3d- / game-engines? FBX-Pipeline to Unity3d / DirectX-Pipeline to Quest3d Need more converters? *.obj OBJ), *.lwo , *.act or *.dxf ? Arthur Walaseks' Exporters Searching for great and free plugins? www.sgross.com by Steffen Gross You are searching for tutorials? More video- and text-tutorials can be found here: Tutorial section of PW3d You want to make your own video tutorial? Recommended Tools and Step By Step Instructions "RMB" means "Right Mouse Button"! |
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Jan 4 2010, 04:56 PM
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#15
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serial explainer Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 19,237 Joined: 5-October 03 From: Dallas, Texas Member No.: 544 A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
Don't you hate it when someone brings you something they want to copy? I had a manager who would do that all the time.
I think those could be z-bufffered shadows which will do soft without grain. However they don't do the penumbra thing without multipass. Here's one very narrow Kleig, very far away, with a high "map resolution", with "softness" at 0, penumbra ON. Adjust the "width" of the light until the ends of the shadows are as non-sharp as you would like. In this scene it's 200cm (These settings I did in the chor BTW, not on the light in the objects folder)
However, even with 9 passes the stepping of the jittered light is noticeable. You could go with more passes, or up the softness of the light until the blur is just enough to mask the stepping. This is 3
this gets shadows that are semi-realistically sharp near the base of the model but fuzzier near the end.
KleigWithPenumbra01.prj ( 25.41k )
Number of downloads: 7The basic trade offs are Wider light needs either more passes or more "softness" Fewer passes needs more "softness" to cover it up. More softness means less realistic sharp shadows where the object contacts the ground. Edit: sorry, I didn't see your sample PRJ or I would have used that. -------------------- Robert Holmén
------ this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests 80,756 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube I'm a 2D wannabe: the thick and the thin of it my screencam tuts All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about. I solved your problem? buy me something (used is OK!) Big thanks to... Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar! |
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Jan 4 2010, 05:33 PM
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#16
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New User Group: )A:M User( Posts: 27 Joined: 14-July 05 From: Maryland Member No.: 7,325 Name: Tommy D'Aquino Hardware Platform: Mac/Win |
Thanks! I think you guys have given me plenty to work with! I'll post final - if the project ever is a go!
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Jan 22 2012, 03:34 PM
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#17
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 Rigging Masochist Group: Craftsman/Mentor Posts: 177 Joined: 23-March 04 From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania U.S.A. Member No.: 2,318 Name: Mack Chappelle A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: - - - - |
Robcat2075 and Fuchur,
I realize that the original posts here are from a few years ago but thank you for these clear explainations. I've been struggling with this same problem for years and I just came across your solution today. This will help me alot. Thanks again. -------------------- "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb
Web site: www.mechadelphia.com |
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Jan 22 2012, 03:51 PM
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#18
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serial explainer Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 19,237 Joined: 5-October 03 From: Dallas, Texas Member No.: 544 A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
QUOTE(Mechadelphia @ Jan 22 2012, 05:34 PM) Robcat2075 and Fuchur, I realize that the original posts here are from a few years ago but thank you for these clear explainations. I looked at the first post and didn't realize how old it was and thought "damn... didn't we solve this a couple of years ago?"  -------------------- Robert Holmén
------ this is only a ... my gallery of A:M tests 80,756 pushed!: the #1 heavy push on Youtube I'm a 2D wannabe: the thick and the thin of it my screencam tuts All my most beloved tutorials in one convenient location. Except for the ones I've forgotten about. I solved your problem? buy me something (used is OK!) Big thanks to... Dalemation, Simon Edmondson, thejobe, Rob_T (2 more x), agep (again!), itsjustme, jason1025(+1), dblhelix (+1),markw, Roger (3x!), mouseman (x 2!), Xtaz, agep, Gerry, thefreshestever, dblhelix (twice!), jason1025, Luuk Steitner, PDM, Rob_T and Dhar! |
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Jan 22 2012, 11:18 PM
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#19
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PatchWorker Group: Hash Fellow Posts: 3,880 Joined: 19-September 03 From: Karlsruhe, Germany Member No.: 215 Name: Gerald Zum Gahr A:M version: Current Hardware Platform: Windows |
 No biggy... better to solve it at all than never...
-------------------- "I know, that I don't know."
See my projects, tutorials and much more at www.PatchWork3d.de Name: Gerald Zum Gahr, alias Fuchur Do want to see my favorite A:M-images? Best of A:M collected by Gerald Zum Gahr Searching for a *.X-Exporter(DirectX) or a *.dts-Exporter(Torque) for A:M? Exporter Page And how can I export to *.FBX-files or other 3d- / game-engines? FBX-Pipeline to Unity3d / DirectX-Pipeline to Quest3d Need more converters? *.obj OBJ), *.lwo , *.act or *.dxf ? Arthur Walaseks' Exporters Searching for great and free plugins? www.sgross.com by Steffen Gross You are searching for tutorials? More video- and text-tutorials can be found here: Tutorial section of PW3d You want to make your own video tutorial? Recommended Tools and Step By Step Instructions "RMB" means "Right Mouse Button"! |
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